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The end of Insteon and why the smart home keeps faltering

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Re: The end of Insteon and why the smart home keeps faltering

#91

Post by gregmac »

Terretta wrote: post #62
gregmac wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason these companies keep faltering is that they push cloud-based and/or locked in product ecosystems. I agree. It's a shame because Insteon products were pretty good for their time, for the most part. Granted, I never used their cloud stuff at all -- only local control (via ISY99 and later also Home Assistant). Though I'd say this was a long time coming; it had been nearly a decade since any new products cam…

> no equivalent for Insteon KeypadLinc there are a variety of HomeKit buttons that are sold as e.g. dimmers or multi-bulb, but in fact can trigger arbitrary homekit devices, scenes, automations, etc. i’m guessing these fall in the category you say “comes close”? an example of what i mean is “Philips Hue v2 Smart Dimmer Switch and Remote” which is actually 4 arbitrary device, scene, or automation buttons that magnetic…

For some context, here's one of my old keypads [1]: controlling outside lights, garage door (status plus control), and scene control (Welcome = several lights on the main floor; All off = very slow fade off of everything). The other one I really miss was in the kitchen and had "Bright", "Dim" and "Off" and controlled lights over the island + sink + under-cabinets + range-hood + some accent LED strips.

Honestly I'm not a huge fan of the "weird looking button on the wall" approach of some of those devices. I have to replace wall switches anyway to get stuff to work, and I don't like "No, don't use THAT switch, press that little button thing next to it".

The closest thing I found was a Zooz ZEN32 [2] which is what I'm trying now.

Leviton makes one [3] which looks nothing like their z-wave dimmers. Lutron Caseta has some stuff that might work but I didn't want to go down that proprietary path (non-zwave). Inovelli is supposed to be making a 5-button controller [4], and their dimmers look great -- but the keypad is vaporware so far, and the rest of their switches have been out of stock everywhere for months.

[1] https://i.imgur.com/jLmGpdT.png

[2] https://www.getzooz.com/zooz-zen32-scene-controller/

[3] https://www.leviton.com/en/products/VRCS4-M0Z

[4] https://community.inovelli.com/t/z-wave-5-button-scene-contr...

Re: The end of Insteon and why the smart home keeps faltering

#92

Post by blahblarblar »

gh02t wrote: post #8

The reason these companies keep faltering is that they push cloud-based and/or locked in product ecosystems. Then they are either forced to a) operate on a pyramid scheme where new customers finance the ongoing costs of existing users or b) a subscription model that gives them a strong incentive to keep customers as locked into their ecosystem as possible. Either of these leave customers high and dry when the house o…

Central anything + smart home = miserable experience. If my router is having a sketchy connection I should never be blocked from turning my lights on, or have one random light in a scene fail to turn on. Someone needs to take the plunge and make the smart home a resilient mesh network that will work even in a zombie apocalypse.

Re: The end of Insteon and why the smart home keeps faltering

#93

Post by syshum »

brimble wrote: post #64
Nextgrid wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is DIY considered bad? I mean, aren't existing "dumb" electricals also DIY in the sense that you have to install it, wire it in, etc? I have a "DIY" setup in my current property with Shelly modules behind light switches and everything connected to Home Assistant. It's been rock-solid for a year now and the occasional maintenance I do (updates, etc) is more out of a hobby than anything (I could air-gap the entire…

There's a big difference between wiring up a new outlet that'll likely last for decades without further effort and will very likely require an identical or near-identical process to replace even 30 years from now, and care and feeding of fully-local "smart home" networks & interfaces. Most plumbing or electrical work I do will last decades. If I move, the same skills will transfer perfectly to the plumbing and wiring…

My design Philosophy around my smart home things has been a model of enhancement. Meaning everything has to work with out the "smart" part, the smarts just add convenience, and and wow factor, but I should not HAVE to use the smart controller to turn on a light, I may need the controller to dim it, or change the color but it should turn on with out it.

Alot of smart Switches will work (turn the circuit on and off) with out the controller.

Re: The end of Insteon and why the smart home keeps faltering

#94

Post by mikewave »

aetherson wrote: post #23

The reason why the smart home keeps faltering is that it provides little value to the customers. It's not the cloud, or the monetization schemes, it's that it turns out that flipping light switches or pressing a button on the thermostat is not a big pain point for people, and using smart-home technology is as often inferior to old dumb tech as it is superior.

This is just it. I have an amazingly smart home: in every single room, I have installed a robust remote control for lighting that cannot get lost, can be replaced for $5 if it breaks, and is perfectly customizable with interchangeable face plates. The kids can even paint them!

I don't need my lights to turn on and off on their own. I don't buy that anyone does, short of perhaps someone who has a physical disability for whomst it would be too difficult. For $20 I can get a timer - perfect for the closet light we always used to leave on by accident.

I think this is basically conspicuous consumption, tasteless pseudo-luxury. I am not impressed by your IoT colorful lightbulbs; impress me with your conversation.

Re: The end of Insteon and why the smart home keeps faltering

#95

Post by threads2 »

mikewave wrote: post #94
aetherson wrote: post #23

The reason why the smart home keeps faltering is that it provides little value to the customers. It's not the cloud, or the monetization schemes, it's that it turns out that flipping light switches or pressing a button on the thermostat is not a big pain point for people, and using smart-home technology is as often inferior to old dumb tech as it is superior.

This is just it. I have an amazingly smart home: in every single room, I have installed a robust remote control for lighting that cannot get lost, can be replaced for $5 if it breaks, and is perfectly customizable with interchangeable face plates. The kids can even paint them! I don't need my lights to turn on and off on their own. I don't buy that anyone does, short of perhaps someone who has a physical disability f…

> whomst

Re: The end of Insteon and why the smart home keeps faltering

#96

Post by soco »

Nextgrid wrote: post #42
brimble wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a big missing piece for the whole thing is the Just Works factor. You're either stuck with cloud garbage (some of which does, kinda, Just Work, until it doesn't), or a bunch of DIY. Meanwhile, with traditional dumb fixtures, switches, outlets, et c., I don't even pay attention to which brand I'm buying. They all work the same, and you hook them all up the same way, then forget about them until/unless they phy…

Why is DIY considered bad? I mean, aren't existing "dumb" electricals also DIY in the sense that you have to install it, wire it in, etc? I have a "DIY" setup in my current property with Shelly modules behind light switches and everything connected to Home Assistant. It's been rock-solid for a year now and the occasional maintenance I do (updates, etc) is more out of a hobby than anything (I could air-gap the entire…

This is a similar argument with other HN discussions "why go AWS when you can just host yourself". Yeah, everything is doable and nothing is difficult to learn, but just a bit of this and a bit of that and connect all together and suddenly you face hours and hours of smart home maintenance you wouldn't need at all otherwise. Because every bit of smart maintenance comes on top of dumb maintenance. Of course if DIY is your hobby then it doesn't count as work, but I have other hobbies so a smart home is not a priority for me - until it either works plug-and-play or becomes so standardized (and cheap) that I can call a technician to do it for me.

Re: The end of Insteon and why the smart home keeps faltering

#97

Post by _0w8t »

jvolkman wrote: post #71
brimble wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big difference between wiring up a new outlet that'll likely last for decades without further effort and will very likely require an identical or near-identical process to replace even 30 years from now, and care and feeding of fully-local "smart home" networks & interfaces. Most plumbing or electrical work I do will last decades. If I move, the same skills will transfer perfectly to the plumbing and wiring…

But any decent smart switch works as a normal switch by default, without any care or feeding. Sure, controlling them remotely and adding them to automation takes additional work, but that's stuff that is just impossible with the dumb switches, and not a requirement to control the light fixtures.

The problem with remotely controlled switches is that they can be (and will be) placed in very inconvenient places. So when the remote part breaks, one cannot just continue to use them because it can be difficult to reach them (like behind refrigerator that has to be moved to use the switch or on a wall in another room).

Re: The end of Insteon and why the smart home keeps faltering

#98

Post by aetherson »

falsenapkin wrote: post #85
aetherson wrote: post #23

The reason why the smart home keeps faltering is that it provides little value to the customers. It's not the cloud, or the monetization schemes, it's that it turns out that flipping light switches or pressing a button on the thermostat is not a big pain point for people, and using smart-home technology is as often inferior to old dumb tech as it is superior.

I generally agree but having a lightbulb that can be scheduled to change brightness, temperature, and on/off status has been pretty great for my sleep. Only being able to control it with my phone is a pain in the ass especially when the widget breaks and I now have to unlock, open an app, and flip through screens just to enter my bedroom.

Right. I have a smart bulb and there are things that it's good for (I like super dim warm light for having enough light to see by but not waking me up), but turning on your light with your phone is awful. I use Alexa for it and it's not a ton better. Most of the lights in my house I actively don't want to have smart versions of.

Re: The end of Insteon and why the smart home keeps faltering

#99

Post by giantrobot »

threads2 wrote: post #95
mikewave wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just it. I have an amazingly smart home: in every single room, I have installed a robust remote control for lighting that cannot get lost, can be replaced for $5 if it breaks, and is perfectly customizable with interchangeable face plates. The kids can even paint them! I don't need my lights to turn on and off on their own. I don't buy that anyone does, short of perhaps someone who has a physical disability f…

> whomst

> whomsth

Re: The end of Insteon and why the smart home keeps faltering

#100

Post by twobitshifter »

jmull wrote: post #26
exabrial wrote: post #2

It's a device that doesn't need to be cloud connected... that's cloud connected. Smart home stuff needs a local network to the home, that's it. A server going down in Virginia shouldn't mean a person can't run their vacuum robot.

Do you even need a local network? For home automation the hobby , all the complexity is a feature. Fiddling with phones, apps, watches, identities, connections, security, networks, etc. is the fun of it. Outside the hobby, though, I don't think people really want to deal with all that. Generally, home devices you might automate are things you interact with -- locally. Local controls for a local device work really wel…

I have to buy a new thermostat for our house heat, or make a diy thermostat as a small project.

I’m having a hard time thinking of a more minimalist design than the Honeywell round thermostat. It doesn’t need a battery, or a processor, or anything other than a spring some fluid and a dial. The dial tells you both the current temp and your setting. I have to justify adding technology to improve it in some way but it just appears to add more problems.

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