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Why DC May Replace AC (2019)

electricalindustry.ca

91–100 of 139 posts

Re: Why DC May Replace AC (2019)

#91
post #16

The author seems very confused about whether they're talking about the grid or devices. "DC power is significantly more energy efficient than AC power." -> the examples go on to specify end points for electrical energy but we already use DC there, AC is mainly used in transmission, so the claimed advantages of DC are irrelevant. "DC motors and appliances have higher efficiency and power to size characteristics." -> B…

> "solar generates DC but wind generates AC." Yes, but a wind turbine is allowed to spin at variable speeds - its rotation is not synchronized to the grid frequency in the same way that hydroelectric and thermal turbines are. In order to get a wind turbine's power output to match the grid frequency, it goes through an AC -> DC -> AC conversion in a component known as a double-fed induction generator (DFIG).

Likewise for solar -- the DC voltage and current a panel puts out is dependent on both insolation and load -- only in the most simple applications can you just hook in directly to a panel, without involving a DC-DC converter. Even grid-tie installations often use DC-DC converters, called "power optimizers" [1], to optimally tie multiple panels to a single bus.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_optimizer

Re: Why DC May Replace AC (2019)

#92
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just about every electric vehicle at this point uses DC induction motors. Many support AC fast charging with various sorts of battery hacks, but Lithium Ion batteries are kind of inherently DC when it comes to applying power to the motors. At this point DC motors generally seem to out-class their AC counterparts other than the efficiency of using the same current as walled outlets in homes. The article puts it this w…

Actually, induction motors seem to be losing popularity in EVs, being replaced by permanent magnet motors which are more efficient (which also makes them easier to cool). And they're usually regarded as AC motors because they're fed 3-phase AC power from a motor controller (also called an inverter). The entire motor controller / motor system runs on DC power, so sometimes it's referred to as a brushless DC motor. Fas…

All charging is done with DC internally. Level 1 and 2 charging uses a rectifier inside the car to convert AC to DC. Fast charging simply bypasses the rectifier.

The reason Level 2 charging is current-limited by your car -- even if you had a very high-current AC source available -- is that to take advantage of a high-current AC source your car would have to carry around a bigger, heavier rectifier. Which would decrease your EV's efficiency just by virtue of being big and heavy.

Re: Why DC May Replace AC (2019)

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just about every electric vehicle at this point uses DC induction motors. Many support AC fast charging with various sorts of battery hacks, but Lithium Ion batteries are kind of inherently DC when it comes to applying power to the motors. At this point DC motors generally seem to out-class their AC counterparts other than the efficiency of using the same current as walled outlets in homes. The article puts it this w…

"Brushless DC" motors are actually 3 phase AC synchronous motors with an integrated DC-> AC converter. In industrial settings with 3 phase grid power they are very efficient

Not necessarily. Brushless DC motors are not required to be 3-phase or even to use sinusoidal waveforms. Most small BDC hobby motors (such as those on drones) are not even remotely sinusoidal.

Re: Why DC May Replace AC (2019)

#94
post #16

The author seems very confused about whether they're talking about the grid or devices. "DC power is significantly more energy efficient than AC power." -> the examples go on to specify end points for electrical energy but we already use DC there, AC is mainly used in transmission, so the claimed advantages of DC are irrelevant. "DC motors and appliances have higher efficiency and power to size characteristics." -> B…

> "DC power is significantly more energy efficient than AC power." -> the examples go on to specify end points for electrical energy but we already use DC there, AC is mainly used in transmission, so the claimed advantages of DC are irrelevant. DC is more efficient for transmission too. The reason the grid uses AC is that high voltage is always[1] more efficient for transmission than low voltage--regardless of whethe…

I fully agree with what you said about AC/DC, just want to point out that DC benefits superconductors as well since superconductors have critical current densities where they lose their super conductivity.

Re: Why DC May Replace AC (2019)

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way is AC safer than DC? Ohm’s law says V=IR, that means your resistive body is gonna get shocked regardless of whether the voltage is constant or changing.

Don't forget that AC can flow through capacitors.

What do you mean by that exactly?

Re: Why DC May Replace AC (2019)

#96
There is an interesting effect with AC distribution that leads to the statement "the amount of power produced must balance that consumed" that you sometimes hear.

On first thought this is a ridiculous statement: voltage is a measure of potential energy after all. If load is reduced, the voltage just hangs there and less power will be consumed.

But with AC distribution what you have is essentially a large rotating machine. The more power you put into it, the faster it spins. When you connect a generator to the grid, you phase match the AC waveforms, connect it, then start pushing the grid faster to inject power.

So the statement is true. If the load is too low, the frequency starts to go up. But it's also not true.. if each generator independently self limits the frequency, we would be back to the potential energy situation. But power plants want to push power into the grid- this is how they earn money.

So some plants self regulate and some do not, see:

https://www.e-education.psu.edu/ebf483/node/705

Ones that self regulate get to charge a premium for their unused capacity.

Even with DC only, you would be in the same situation. A power plant wants to make money, so it will want to push power into the grid, which for DC means pushing the voltage up.

Re: Why DC May Replace AC (2019)

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From some random reading on the net, it is the smaller ones that can be directly connected. Above 2MW things are not as easy and it is better and more efficient to convert to DC.

Wind turbines have frequency converters. They are semiconductor devices. In one 3 MW turbine I visited, it was at the base of the tower. The blade angle is adjusted to get optimum power extraction. Rotor RPM is completely independent of produced power frequency. References: https://www.vestas.com/en/products/offshore/V236-15MW and https://library.e.abb.com/public/bf09cdf11d234241845c79ac343...

You're talking past each other.

The electronics perform two key functions:

* Choosing pitch angles for efficiency and turbine safety. You can, for smaller turbines, just synchronize the turbine to the grid, but this is becoming uncommon practice.

* Converting the produced AC power to DC, and then choosing the proper frequency output and voltage to feed power to the grid, and inverting the DC to make this power. This should usually be trying to "speed up" the frequency of the grid a little if it's not already way too fast and regulate the voltage appropriately.

The second link you have, on page 3, shows (active) rectification (d) of the wind turbine AC power to make positive and negative DC buses, and then inversion of that DC (f) to make 3 phase AC output power.

Re: Why DC May Replace AC (2019)

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lots of things are envisioned every day. everyone has ideas; calling it "envisioned" doesn't make those things any more feasible or realistic. article author is either sole owner of a huge copper deposit or isn't articulating themselves very well. DC makes no sense for distribution at all.

But DC is used for distribution, just at extremely high voltages.

HVDC is used in distribution for specific transfer between point A and point B, HVDC is not used _for_ distribution.

Distribution implies a network that keeps getting downstepped until it reaches consumer nodes.

Re: Why DC May Replace AC (2019)

#99

The major thing that is unaddressed is the inertia of the extant built environment. We know that lead paint is bad for people, especially kids, but we haven’t remediated it in much of the pre-1976 housing stock. Why? It is expensive and the places where it is worst are not high-value areas. Similarly, there are many homes in America with low voltage knob and tube which is an uninsulated wire. Would you retrofit homes…

K&T is not uninsulated.

Re: Why DC May Replace AC (2019)

#100

There is an interesting effect with AC distribution that leads to the statement "the amount of power produced must balance that consumed" that you sometimes hear. On first thought this is a ridiculous statement: voltage is a measure of potential energy after all. If load is reduced, the voltage just hangs there and less power will be consumed. But with AC distribution what you have is essentially a large rotating mac…

> There is an interesting effect with AC distribution that leads to the statement "the amount of power produced must balance that consumed" that you sometimes hear.

You have the same problem with DC. It nothing to do with 'AC' per say. It's a issue of large scale power plants.

> On first thought this is a ridiculous statement: voltage is a measure of potential energy after all. If load is reduced, the voltage just hangs there and less power will be consumed.

Voltage is a measurement of the difference of two electrical potentials. "Potential Energy" is something else entirely.

Voltage is not a measurement of energy.

Voltage works in a similar way that pressure does. Imagine you have two pressure cylinders and one of them is 200 PSI and the other is 220 PSI. If you were using a voltage-style measurement between the two cylinders you'd say that the there is 20 PSI different or 'potential' between them.

That gives you zero information as far as the actual energy potential. A 16 ounce canister at 100 PSI is going to have a lot less energy potential then a 500 gallon tank at 100 PSI, for example.

This is why you can go and get a static electrical shock that involves thousands of volts and your skin doesn't burst into flames.

> But with AC distribution what you have is essentially a large rotating machine.

No with AC, or DC, what you is LITERALLY a large rotating machine. A rotating machine larger then most houses running of of hydro electric, coal, or nuclear power take time to have their energy output adjusted.

They don't work like car motors were you press a button to go "zoom" and another to go "woah".

The generators that can quickly adjust are small ones. Generally natural gas turbines. They are a lot like jet engines. In fact many of them used to be the same type of engines used in jet planes.

And they are much more expensive to operate and less efficient overall, but they are the ones people are moving to because they can keep up with the extremely poor quality electrical output (read: highly unpredictable) you get from solar and wind.

> Even with DC only, you would be in the same situation. A power plant wants to make money, so it will want to push power into the grid, which for DC means pushing the voltage up.

You somehow seem to have "laws of physics' confused with "making a profit".

Of course you are not wrong with the power plants operators wanting to get paid to work for a living and there are plenty of shady things they do that you should be irritated about, but you are barking up the wrong tree here.

For example: the massive scam that is government-subsidized grid-tied residential solar. How that the plant operators have colluded with the regulators to ensure that they have remote control over your inverter's output. Which means that with the hundreds of thousands of solar panel installations that people are proud of and think they can make money from 'selling back to the power plant' are actually operating at a only a tiny fraction potential output.

Which means that home owners that do pay tens of thousands of dollars for these setups are getting burned WHILE accomplishing nothing to help the environment.

And when the grid goes down so will those grid-tied installations. For "safety" reasons, despite the fact that ICE-based generators have had reliable failsafes for generations that automatically prevent any electrical feedback into downed power lines.

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The fact of the matter why DC is better then AC for power transmission has to do with inductance.

Every time the wire is subject to electrical current it generates a magnetic field. The higher the current the more powerful the magnetic field. By winding a cable around a iron core you can concentrate that field and make a powerful electro-magnet. The effect is still present in the miles of electrical cable used for power distribution. It's just spread out over a massive area.

With AC that magnetic field needs to be torn down to zero, reversed, and then torn down to zero again 60 times a second. Sure much of that energy is returned to the wire on each field collapse, but it is still something you have to deal with and fight with. It shows up as significant inductance.

With DC you don't have to do that.

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