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The Shaming-Industrial Complex

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Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#91

Post by conanite »

spawarotti wrote: post #76
verisimi wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Advanced morality about things like race and gender is complex and not within everyone's reach. "Advanced morality" - what's that? Can you teach me? Afaik, morality begins (and ends) with the Golden Rule 'do unto others'. "Treat others as you would like others to treat you (positive or directive form)" "Do not treat others in ways that you would not like to be treated (negative or prohibitive form)" https://en.wiki…

What if I am very secure about given topic (e.g., balding), so I feel very comfortable joking about it, even "at my cost". Should I disregard the fact other people might be insecure about it, because I don't mind people "doing unto me" such jokes?

Consider how you would like others to treat your insecurities. Balding isn't the core issue here...

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#92

Post by zzzeek »

motohagiography wrote: post #84

The shame machine has created a disequillibrium, and personally I won't miss it when societies correct. More gravely, I think there is a coming generation of young men who will also wake up one day and say, "I don't need your redemption, it has no value." And like that, they will no longer avoid or deny shame, or be governed by it because redemption is a hustle, the carrot to shame's stick. When they see that they ha…

> I think there is a coming generation of young men who will also wake up one day and say, "I don't need your redemption, it has no value." And like that, they will no longer avoid or deny shame

This "coming generation" you refer towards is already present and is otherwise known as "the status quo of maleness for basically all of recorded human history".

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#93

Post by [deleted] »

motohagiography wrote: post #84

The shame machine has created a disequillibrium, and personally I won't miss it when societies correct. More gravely, I think there is a coming generation of young men who will also wake up one day and say, "I don't need your redemption, it has no value." And like that, they will no longer avoid or deny shame, or be governed by it because redemption is a hustle, the carrot to shame's stick. When they see that they ha…

[deleted]

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#95

Post by tartoran »

spawarotti wrote: post #76
verisimi wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Advanced morality about things like race and gender is complex and not within everyone's reach. "Advanced morality" - what's that? Can you teach me? Afaik, morality begins (and ends) with the Golden Rule 'do unto others'. "Treat others as you would like others to treat you (positive or directive form)" "Do not treat others in ways that you would not like to be treated (negative or prohibitive form)" https://en.wiki…

What if I am very secure about given topic (e.g., balding), so I feel very comfortable joking about it, even "at my cost". Should I disregard the fact other people might be insecure about it, because I don't mind people "doing unto me" such jokes?

It depends on the kind of humor. Humor is a very powerful tool that may even dispell insecurities if done right, but it could also be very rub it in one’s face offensive.

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#96

Post by lliamander »

zzzeek wrote: post #92
motohagiography wrote: post #84

The shame machine has created a disequillibrium, and personally I won't miss it when societies correct. More gravely, I think there is a coming generation of young men who will also wake up one day and say, "I don't need your redemption, it has no value." And like that, they will no longer avoid or deny shame, or be governed by it because redemption is a hustle, the carrot to shame's stick. When they see that they ha…

> I think there is a coming generation of young men who will also wake up one day and say, "I don't need your redemption, it has no value." And like that, they will no longer avoid or deny shame This "coming generation" you refer towards is already present and is otherwise known as "the status quo of maleness for basically all of recorded human history".

> the status quo of maleness for basically all of recorded human history

I'm pretty sure that's completely false.

Consider the white feather campaign in Britain during WWI.

So much of male behavior throughout history has precisely been about preserving honor and avoiding shame.

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#97

Post by renewiltord »

verisimi wrote: post #75
BenoitEssiambre wrote: post #59

The article kinda misses a major point: > Flanagan calls shame accompanied by progressive values “mature shame” I would argue that shaming used to promote your political views is often the most damaging kind of shaming because on top of being the most divisive, it is likely counterproductive, an offputting move that damages your brand and often creates a powerful backlash against it. Now there's some subtlety here. I…

> Advanced morality about things like race and gender is complex and not within everyone's reach. "Advanced morality" - what's that? Can you teach me? Afaik, morality begins (and ends) with the Golden Rule 'do unto others'. "Treat others as you would like others to treat you (positive or directive form)" "Do not treat others in ways that you would not like to be treated (negative or prohibitive form)" https://en.wiki…

I would imagine the “why” of the rule is more important than the rule itself. Anyway, some reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg's_stages_of_...

Besides, the unqualified versions of The Golden Rule are subject to exploits around not observing the Veil of Ignorance.

After all, I believe that everyone whose name is “Rene” must by right have the money of all others. I do unto you as I would have you do unto me: I.e. we both behave according to the precept “if I am a Rene and you are not then I will take your money; and if you are Rene and I am not then I would give you my money”.

A universal law for the ages. I shall treat you as I would have you treat me. Now, if you don’t mind, stand and deliver.

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#98

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

yunohn wrote: post #41
KennyBlanken wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I’m not sure why you’re so heavily downvoted - this is common sense.

They desire that those having bad opinions should be shamed and are therefore being given what they desired, in a classic demonstration that one should be careful what one wishes for.

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#99

Post by seattle_spring »

k__ wrote: post #74
lazyeye wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Advocates for diversity love all its superficial forms (skin color, gender, sexual orientation etc) and absolutely loathe the only form that matters...diversity of thought.

Reminds me of something I read recently: The majority of people who criticize virtue signaling possess no virtues whatsoever.

That seems like a completely empty and likely incorrect phrase. What exactly does it mean to you?

Re: The Shaming-Industrial Complex

#100

Post by superdisk »

yunohn wrote: post #87
superdisk wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And yet, here you and I are expressing our opinions and having a discussion. You and I haven't said anything controversial. > Care to link to any real cases[...] Nolan Bushnell got cancelled because Atari was allegedly sexist in the 70s, and got an award revoked for it. [1] There's of course the infamous dongle joke fiasco at PyCon. [2] James Damore got cancelled for the Google memo, and got fired for it. [3] These…

> You and I haven't said anything controversial. You’re the one who said anything could be controversial: > where if it happens that something you said, no matter how innocuous, snowballs for whatever reason, you're screwed I like how you “ [...] “ out the words racist/sexist and proceeded to list exactly those kind of cases. > [1] … Bushnell holding company meetings in a hot tub and attempting to coax a female emplo…

> You’re the one who said anything could be controversial

Okay, some things carry more risk than others, but the point I was trying to make is that crazy people can go for your neck (and exhort others to do the same) over any random thing, it's not limited to sexism/racism/whatever.

> I like how you “ [...] “ out the words [...]

I did it to save space, come on now.

You're missing the point of the cases I listed. It's not that they were able to recover from the attack, or were rich enough that it didn't materially matter, it's that it shouldn't even be happening in the first place. It seems like you've moved the goalposts from "cancel culture only happens against racists and sexists, and is a natural backlash to that" to "okay, mobs tried to ruin these peoples' livelihoods, but they ultimately got jobs again so it's ok." You're also implying that losing one's job is some sort of no big deal, when in actuality it can change your life. All three cases I listed, IMO, were minor things that spiraled into ridiculous proportions because of mob furor.

Addressing each case individually:

1. Okay, Nolan is successful and rich, therefore the attack can't hurt him that much, but what if he wasn't? It doesn't make this sort of behavior okay because he can weather it.

2. The guy apologizing to Adria in public is just him being gracious and trying to move on without poking the beehive again. Nolan did the same about the award. They certainly "learned their lesson" from this debacle I'm sure!

3. Misguided and clumsy maybe, but Damore's motivations weren't sexist and neither was his memo. The fact that he became a public spectacle over it and had his character assassinated is ridiculous, and even if he got a new job, he's always going to be remembered as the sexist behind the Google memo.

The point here is that it's not always just cases of people being explicitly racist and getting backlash over it-- it's disproportionate punishment for small slights which causes everyone to be afraid to say anything.

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