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Nuclear war probabilities are useless - counter to the nuclear gambler’s ruin

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Re: Nuclear war probabilities are useless - counter to the nuclear gambler’s ruin

#91

> Putin does not roll a dice every morning and launches a nuclear missile if a six shows up Very true. Using, essentially, the infinite typing monkeys idea to say that a nuclear war is bound to happen eventually is just a pseudo-scientific rationalization of war. Put this way, almost anything becomes certain if you completely ignore the fact that you don’t know P(nukes|war) since we have no further data to base this…

That’s not how the modelling works. That’s a mischaracterisation, a straw man argument.

Re: Nuclear war probabilities are useless - counter to the nuclear gambler’s ruin

#92
In a sense the dice are rolled constantly. Every time someone monitors a nuclear power’s early warning system there is a risk that system will return a false positive. There is a chance the operator won’t recognize it. There is a chance the geopolitical situation will cause leadership to believe it is a true positive. There is a chance they will choose to launch on warning rather than risk loosing the opportunity at a meaningful counter attack. I agree that it’s probably impossible to estimate the probability, but it is definitely greater than 0. Eventually the dice will come up snake eyes. Hopefully not before we figure out how to stop rolling them.

Re: Nuclear war probabilities are useless - counter to the nuclear gambler’s ruin

#94
post #68
post #60

While it is difficult/impossible to accurately quantify the probability of war, and that the ground truth is far more complex than these simple models, there still has been a long list of historical incidents in which the outcome was decided by sometimes random and even independent factors outside of anyone's control and makes the gambler's ruin argument compelling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_close…

There's two particular incidents that are great examples of this. The '83 false alarm [1], and the 1980 missile silo explosion [2]. In both cases, they were razor-thin near misses. If either accident happened even once more, we absolutely would have either a radiological disaster or accidental nuclear war. It's this sort of thing that makes me think maybe we shouldn't have any nuclear technology at all, the risks are…

I wonder what if the Chelyabinsk meteor had fallen now, instead of some years ago. Could it have been mistaken for a nuke and triggered a "counterstrike"?

Re: Nuclear war probabilities are useless - counter to the nuclear gambler’s ruin

#95
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> His most recent take is that by refusing to get directly involved in Ukraine, NATO creates an understanding in Putin's mind that it wouldn't get involved in, say, Latvia either. That’s a weird take. Ukraine is not a NATO member, NATO can choose to fight for them or can choose to not fight for them. Latvia is a NATO member. If Latvia is attacked and the NATO doesn’t fight for them NATO stops being a thing immediatel…

I think this take is exactly what needs to be considered. We draw a line, it's NATO. Russia steps right up to the line by attacking Ukraine, and NATO does nothing. Is he going to believe that the line is still there? Why not test it? In my mind it's perfectly plausible that NATO squirms out if Latvia is attacked. Then the line is "core NATO" or something like that. At the very least if he doesn't test article 5, he c…

> Why not test it?

Be our guest. Test it.

It doesn’t start with “and then Russia attacked Latvia”. They are not the Fire Nation. They need time to line up their logistics which will give time for NATO to detect their moves and amass troops in Latvia. Heck they were only lining up to attack a non-NATO country (Ukraine) and NATO sent extra troops to Latvia.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-nato-military-moves-send-...

Re: Nuclear war probabilities are useless - counter to the nuclear gambler’s ruin

#96
post #90
post #58

In safety we try to prevent rare events (such as death) and these are rare enough that “past deaths” are not a useful way to predict the likelihood of a death. A crucial metric that occurs more more often and does help predict deaths is “HPI” - high potential incident. A worker eight metres in the air dropped a spanner. It thudded on the ground, harmlessly. No one was hurt. No problem, right? That’s a HPI. A workplac…

I am not sure if I understand what the point is you’re trying to make

I took it to be: the original author's point was that nuclear attacks are so rare and our sample size so small that we can't use history to predict their occurrence in the future. This commenter is saying the typical way to handle situations like this is to look for more-common events that are proxies for the less-common ones in some predictable way.

To give a different example of my own: on an intersection-by-intersection basis, pedestrians dying from getting hit by a car is relatively rare, so if it's perceived that a particular intersection is unsafe and the design of the intersection is modified with a goal of reducing the chance of death, it can be difficult to know if that intervention worked. Supposing last year there was one death there and this year there weren't any; was that because of the design change, or just chance? But we do know that, in aggregate, some relatively constant percentage of collisions will result in deaths, and collisions overall are much more common than deadly ones, so even if the policy goal is to reduce deaths, measuring all collisions is a very useful, less-noisy proxy for determining if an intersection has been made less deadly.

So: original author is arguing that we can't meaningfully reason about these things because they're rare, and this commenter is saying "yes we can, if we find a more-common, less-noisy thing that's a good proxy for the rarer thing," and proposes that nuclear close calls are such a proxy.

Re: Nuclear war probabilities are useless - counter to the nuclear gambler’s ruin

#97
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t get the direct connection between response from a non-NATO country being attacked and a NATO member. The idea is that the lack of NATO membership is just a formality. In any other aspect, Ukraine is a much more important geopolitical asset than said Latvia (with all due respect to the Latvians - I'm just imagining the way it plays out in Putin's head. Or at least the way I understand Piontkovsy here). > If…

I mean I find these analysis absurd, they seem based on the ideas not just that Putin is irrational but also that he knows nothing about the very things we would assume he knows about, stuff like how treaties and military alliances work. I could totally understand some guy on the street thinking hey Latvia is nothing, if they won't defend the Ukraine then they won't defend Latvia but why would a guy with supposed kno…

> why would a guy with supposed knowledge of military history and how alliances can often cause nations who are allied to come in to wars

There's no military history of nuclear wars. This could be the difference in Putin's head.

Re: Nuclear war probabilities are useless - counter to the nuclear gambler’s ruin

#98
post #92

In a sense the dice are rolled constantly. Every time someone monitors a nuclear power’s early warning system there is a risk that system will return a false positive. There is a chance the operator won’t recognize it. There is a chance the geopolitical situation will cause leadership to believe it is a true positive. There is a chance they will choose to launch on warning rather than risk loosing the opportunity at…

The original article does this straw man trick of pretending that the models act like every day is independent. That’s not how it works at all. They’re not modelling the chance of a spontaneous war erupting without cause on day X. Motivated authors just pretend that’s what the models mean because it makes it easy to ridicule.

Regarding this — “it’s probably impossible to estimate the probability” - ok - well. I think we have to unpack that a lot!

I would say: “we can model the event.” That’s an absolute. (Anyone who disagrees with that statement just does not understand the statement)

It does not mean the models are accurate. The model will provide probabilities. How much confidence can we have in the probabilities? Now this is where the difficulty lies. The probability itself will be a low number. And our confidence won’t be very high. That’s automatically creates an opening for any bad faith commentator to say launch an attack. And yet… what’s the alternative? Pretend it cannot be modelled as various commentators in this page (but not you) have done? Pretend that a model with low probabilities or low confidence can be dismissed? The best response (if we agree that nuclear war is a Bad Thing and worth avoiding) is to improve the models, not ignore them - and of course in so doing —- to try and avoid nuclear war.

Re: Nuclear war probabilities are useless - counter to the nuclear gambler’s ruin

#99
post #31

A useful metric - how often does a national leader willing to start a nuclear war come to power in a state with nuclear weapons? That's measureable from historical data.

Only one national leader -- Harry Truman -- has ever allowed nuclear weapons to be used in combat, in 1945, the same year the weapon became available. This was 77 years ago. He was the 33rd president, and we are on the 46th. By this measure, based only on the US, we get such a leader once every 77 years or once every 13 leaders. These numbers will only get lower once you start to add in other nuclear weapons states.…

If we have N nuclear states, the possibilities of conflicts between them must scale at least as N^2/2, counting the hypothesis of a country using nukes against itself (civil war/secession).

Re: Nuclear war probabilities are useless - counter to the nuclear gambler’s ruin

#100
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure if I understand what the point is you’re trying to make

I took it to be: the original author's point was that nuclear attacks are so rare and our sample size so small that we can't use history to predict their occurrence in the future. This commenter is saying the typical way to handle situations like this is to look for more-common events that are proxies for the less-common ones in some predictable way. To give a different example of my own: on an intersection-by-inters…

Thank you, yes. As my buddy Jeeves would say “rem acu tetigisti”
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