World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate • Hacker News Board

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#91

Post by sweetheart » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 2:34 AM UTC

lancesells wrote: post #34

jazzyjackson wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do humans have a complete lack of an ability to say "stop, we're not going to do this anymore". Because not doing things leaves you with a distinct lack of capital. Not dragging on capitalism, just being descriptive: those who act collect the resources to act more

I also think humans are curious. We want new things, new experiences to discover, etc. But also agree we should put the brakes on octopus farms. It's like a puppy mill for food.

Wait until you learn about hog farms then.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#92

Post by AngryData » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 2:35 AM UTC

honkycat wrote: post #28

By all accounts octopus intelligence is extremely overblown. And "sentience" is an extremely low bar. Compare the intelligence of a cow or pig or similar mammal to an octopus and the mammal will DESTROY the octopus. We tolerate farming these animals. Much to our own detriment in terms of health, and nutrition, and environmental impact, land usage, and water usage. Plus there is the problem of breeding MRSA. Plus they…

Are there study's to back up the lack of octopus intelligence? Because if we are comparing octopus to other farm animals, most farm animals are dumb as a box of rocks compared to wild cousins or ancestors. We bred most farm animals to be dumb in process of domestication in order to keep them contained, the smart ones can escape, while the dumb ones get easily bred. Ive never seen anything to make me believe my cows are even remotely as intelligent as a wild animal and consider them the extremely dull mutant cousins of their ancestors.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#93

Post by nefitty » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 2:37 AM UTC

croes wrote: post #32

karpierz wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course, we can't stop eating every animal Why? There are plenty of people who do.

It is not always possible to get all the nutrients you need without animal products, either because they are not available or because the price is too high.

There are definitely people in situations where the burden of a vegan or vegetarian diet would cause much more harm to them personally than the harm an omnivore diet would cause. I don't blame people for the uncontrollable, and I don't know that anyone who holds a well-thought out position on animal suffering would either. Suffering is the superset of all suffering. My ethical heuristic is to make choices with an eye toward reducing that set.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#94

Post by silisili » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 2:37 AM UTC

lisper wrote: post #15

pranith wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even cows are extremely intelligent and emotional animals. Did you stop eating them?

Pigs and chickens too.

I'm not joining in on the ethics of meat eating debate at all, but as someone who's lived around chickens a good chunk of life, calling them extremely intelligent would be...a stretch.

Pigs though, definitely. Highly underrated animal.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#95

Post by sweetheart » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 2:37 AM UTC

bastawhiz wrote: post #90

sweetheart wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just go vegan if you believe all that?

It's possible to point out contradictions of beliefs without having those beliefs yourself.

Sure, but what’s stopping you from holding that belief then?

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#96

Post by willcipriano » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 2:37 AM UTC

aurizon wrote: post #18

It is interesting that Octopi die after laying their eggs - a 1-1.5 year lifespan in most, a little more in the large ones. I makes me curious if octopi went through a period of overpopulation(for their niche) that lead to many starvation - abundance - starvation cycles until gene smarts capped their life span - else we be up to our gunwales with long lived octopi they breed very prolifically... a die young cycle.

You'd think being able to lay eggs twice would be a massive advantage for a individual set of genes.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#97

Post by vmception » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 2:37 AM UTC

Azek wrote: post #72

vmception wrote: post #33

It was always possible for me to perceive sentience, feelings and emotions from a variety of beings, I don't understand why grown adults are just reaching a cognitive maturity to notice that and making that a line in the sand on whether they will farm/consume a being based on that. These seem to be two separate things to me? Can someone shed light on both: a) why these are related concepts b) your journey to cognitiv…

My take is that they're related because a being's ability to experience sentience, and especially suffering are ethical grounds to not breed them and inflict unnecessary suffering through harsh captivity and slaughter.

So for you, is that something that extends to all farmed animals then?

Its not possible for me to tell if thats been your stance on everything like farming chickens and salmon, or if you were one of the people that just found out Octopus' are smart and made a line there, or another group or individual with a unique opinion

there are some observations and personal dietary choices I can be sympathetic towards, I just don't know which one I'm hearing at the time and when it comes to Octopus or the animal-of-the-month I find people not being able to articulate their new opinion at all, but being shocked that the listener (me) isn't automatically on board or making a line at sentience.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#98

Post by alliao » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 2:39 AM UTC

sitkack wrote: post #16

alliao wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the same would apply to pretty much all animals no? and dare I say plants too?

So are you saying since all flora and fauna might also apply, that we do nothing? This is the all or nothing fallacy mentioned up thread.

I think we can do something, I think these research are good, and we can try and reduce harm. Personally I just try and reduce food wastage, I've kept a journal and boy do I waste a lot...

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#99

Post by asdff » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 2:39 AM UTC

sweetheart wrote: post #78

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We as a society seem to have no problem killing millions of insects to make it easier to grow plants though. No matter what you eat, things are dying to supply your food. If you want to minimize the number of animals being killed, it’s probably best to eat the largest ones you have.

How do you think we grow those bigger animals though? We grow plants to feed them and convert those plant calories to animal calories at a mind bogglingly inefficient rate. If you want to reduce death and suffering overall, sticking to plants only is the best route.

We also grow plants to burn in F150s. OTOH you also cannot convert all the pastoral land into agricultural land. In fact its probably pastoral land in the first place because the land is not that possible to farm on otherwise (e.g. hilly/narrow/rock laden pastures which are quite common across hilly areas like appalachia).

The fact is there are good ways to grow animals and plants, and bad ways, and we should just focus on eliminating the bad ways and allowing the market to set prices on what the good practices are. It honestly wound't be too expensive; grassfed pastured beef isn't too much of a premium, neither is soybean that came from an ohio field instead of a Brazilian rainforest. If subsidizes were eliminated for the mass market operations that damage the environment, and introduced for these sustainable operations, you'd see a lot of self correction in the market to fit these more sustainable practices.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#100

Post by lisper » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 2:41 AM UTC

silisili wrote: post #94

lisper wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pigs and chickens too.

I'm not joining in on the ethics of meat eating debate at all, but as someone who's lived around chickens a good chunk of life, calling them extremely intelligent would be...a stretch. Pigs though, definitely. Highly underrated animal.

That's surprising. I have no first hand experience, but I have been told by people who keep them as pets that chickens and cows are pretty much in the same league. Both can have distinct personalities.