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Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

reuters.com

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Re: Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

#91

Post by hammock »

mym1990 wrote: post #37
roughly wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we saved some money by shuttering all our factories and outsourcing everything, so, who's to say what the right answer was. (/s)

"We saved some money" is how economics works in price competitive markets. This is a result of many players doing what keeps each one competitive, but without collaborating on what the large scale effects are down the road.

>"We saved some money" is how economics works in price competitive markets. This is a result of many players doing what keeps each one competitive, but without collaborating on what the large scale effects are down the road.

An excellent and accurate elaboration of the modern economic theory that led us, nevertheless, to our current precarious position.

Re: Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

#92

Post by lotsofpulp »

netizen-936824 wrote: post #53
stingraycharles wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And most importantly, economics assumes that the market is perfect, which it most certainly is not in practice. What we didn’t do enough is take the geopolitical landscape into this equation (or a potential pandemic, for that matter), which I hope changes after recent developments. I blame the governments mostly for this, I completely understand the businesses needing to do what’s best for business.

Business are still run by people. Nobody was forced to see someone else doing something shitty and then say "well I just need to be a bigger asshole than that guy! Must be okay 'cause it's not illegal" People have far too simplistic models of how things work, this is the consequence of a lack of understanding and shortsightedness

Businesses also need to have customers. No clothes maker was forced to manufacture in poor countries, but the alternative was to simply stop existing since insufficient customers are willing to pay the price premium for purely American made clothes. Hence the only solution would have been legislation forcing domestic manufacturing.

Re: Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

#93

Post by deltaonefour »

livinglist wrote: post #21
atlantas wrote: post #10

90%! Did we really let ourselves become so reliant on Ukraine and Taiwan for computer chips? Taiwan being the next country most under threat. In fact, Reuters just reported that "Taiwan warns Chinese aircraft in its air defence zone" https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/taiwan-reports-ni...

as a Chinese raised in China myself, this happens pretty regularly since years ago. I don’t think Winnie the Pooh has big balls to attack Taiwan in recent future. China has too much to lose right now.

Yeah Chinese people place commerce over patriotism first. It's just the general attitude we have... unlikely Pooh bear will conduct an attack.

We should only be worried about an attack if the the effects on commerce and military retaliation becomes negligible. That's when China will strike.

Re: Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

#94

Post by [deleted] »

rob74 wrote: post #61
mym1990 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We saved some money" is how economics works in price competitive markets. This is a result of many players doing what keeps each one competitive, but without collaborating on what the large scale effects are down the road.

Yup... and another result of that is climate change.

[deleted]

Re: Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

#95

Post by dkonofalski »

roughly wrote: post #62
bingohbangoh wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when the orange man came and said we should bring it back, I laughed at home and call him an idiot!

Yeah, there was a definite "Trump said it so it's wrong" zeitgeist among the left that led to some uncomfortable moments. Tribal politics is a hell of a drug.

That was not unique to the left.

Re: Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

#96

Post by cbfrench »

atlantas wrote: post #10

90%! Did we really let ourselves become so reliant on Ukraine and Taiwan for computer chips? Taiwan being the next country most under threat. In fact, Reuters just reported that "Taiwan warns Chinese aircraft in its air defence zone" https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/taiwan-reports-ni...

It’s worth noting that Chinese incursions into Taiwan’s ADIZ are a routine occurrence and don’t really represent any increase in aggression above the baseline:

“On Wednesday (February 23), two Chinese military jets flew into Taiwan's air defence identification zone (ADIZ), marking the 12th intrusion this month.”

https://www.wionews.com/world/two-chinese-fighter-jets-enter...

Re: Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

#97

Post by adrian_b »

perihelions wrote: post #2

How is neon extracted and why does one country have a 90% monopoly (in this specific grade)? edit: Found this C&EN story from 2016 that adds context: - "Chip makers, which account for more than 90% of global neon consumption, are already experiencing high prices and some shortages stemming from the Russian conflict with Ukraine, Shon-Roy says. The war, which started in 2014, interrupted global supplies of the gas, ab…

Obviously the monopoly was due to the fact that they were able to sell it at the cheapest price for the required purity.

There should be no significant problems to create production capacities in other places, but then the price would become higher and, more importantly, a few months or even years might be needed until the neon production would be increased enough to compensate for a sudden loss of the source from Ukraine.

Re: Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

#98

Post by munk-a »

hammock wrote: post #91
mym1990 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We saved some money" is how economics works in price competitive markets. This is a result of many players doing what keeps each one competitive, but without collaborating on what the large scale effects are down the road.

>"We saved some money" is how economics works in price competitive markets. This is a result of many players doing what keeps each one competitive, but without collaborating on what the large scale effects are down the road. An excellent and accurate elaboration of the modern economic theory that led us, nevertheless, to our current precarious position.

Modern economic theory doesn't disallow subsidies - it's very possible to exist in a primarily capitalist society with either tariffs or domestic business subsidies to ensure certain key industries remain on local shores - it might be politically infeasible for such laws to be passed in the US, but it is a very reasonable response.

Re: Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

#99

Post by AvesMerit »

bingohbangoh wrote: post #51
roughly wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we saved some money by shuttering all our factories and outsourcing everything, so, who's to say what the right answer was. (/s)

And when the orange man came and said we should bring it back, I laughed at home and call him an idiot!

How much onshoring did orange man actually do? According to St. Louis FRED - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MANEMP - basically nothing

> call him an idiot!

And you were and still are right to do that!

Re: Ukraine is a major producer of neon gas, critical for lasers used in chipmaking

#100

Post by analog31 »

philipkglass wrote: post #58
atlantas wrote: post #10

90%! Did we really let ourselves become so reliant on Ukraine and Taiwan for computer chips? Taiwan being the next country most under threat. In fact, Reuters just reported that "Taiwan warns Chinese aircraft in its air defence zone" https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/taiwan-reports-ni...

Neon is used in excimer lasers that generate ultraviolet light. These lasers are used in photolithography and for annealing amorphous silicon to polycrystalline silicon in flat panel display manufacturing. Laser manufacturers and users already faced a Ukrainian neon crisis during the last round of fighting and made changes to reduce consumption of fresh neon: https://www.photonicsonline.com/doc/how-one-light-source-m…

Perhaps not as important but the humble helium neon laser is also still an important practical standard for position measurement at submicron accuracy.
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