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The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

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Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#91

The German government loves blaming troublesome newish movements like vocal anti-vaxer, conspiracy theorists, some new right wing groups etc. as being the fault of misinformation on Facebook Whatsapp and their recently target telegram. I don't think that's right. Sure this modern media allows faster spread of information, including manipulative information but that's mostly it. In my experience (i.e. people in my env…

> increase the believe [sic] in conspiracy theories

I'm old enough to remember a time before the internet, when the only information sources were newspapers, magazines, radio and TV. I remember reading all of those sources back then and thinking, "man, there's nobody in the entire world who agrees with my viewpoints on anything". I mean, you'd think that, logically, if even 10% of the world agreed with me on anything, at least one of them would be writing for some mainstream media source. But they all seemed to say the same things and believe the same things and agree with each other on almost everything.

I felt like my opinions were so far out of the mainstream that I didn't dare mention one to my close friends. Then the internet came along.

The internet of the mid-90's was almost entirely populated by people who agreed with me on nearly everything. I thought, "how could this possibly be? How could there be so many people who disagree with nearly every opinion you see on TV, hear on the radio or read in magazines or newspapers? Where have they all been this whole time?"

In the past ten years or so, I've seen them slowly disappear though. They dominated the discourse until around 2010 (roughly) but bit by bit we're coming back to the same opinions I used to see on TV, Radio, newspaper and magazines back in the 80's.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#92

IMO the author displays confirmation bias in the post. He doesn't think about the effects of a higher availability information with a lower ability to seek out other contradicting points of view. If you're deluged with carefully chosen factual information, that's more convincing than outright lies. And this is often the situation we are in more often than not these days. Along with an inability to spot logical fallac…

> If you're deluged with carefully chosen factual information, that's more convincing than outright lies.

I think it's exactly the opposite. It's far easier to convince with outright lies than with carefully chosen facts, because those lies are crafted to match what you want to believe. That's what false conspiracy theories are born of.

Everyone is subject to that bias, even people that consider themselves highly logical.

It starts becoming a problem when it is manipulated to channel broadly held but not expressed resentments.

This is common in ethnically fractured developing societies, where a rumor about something someone in group x did to someone in group y could turn into a coup or war, but it seems that developed societies are no longer immune either.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#94

IMO the author displays confirmation bias in the post. He doesn't think about the effects of a higher availability information with a lower ability to seek out other contradicting points of view. If you're deluged with carefully chosen factual information, that's more convincing than outright lies. And this is often the situation we are in more often than not these days. Along with an inability to spot logical fallac…

> He doesn't think about the effects of a higher availability information with a lower ability to seek out other contradicting points of view. This is a baffling claim. Why on earth would you believe that people now have a lower ability to seek out contradicting points of view?

Which profit driven advertising based search engine or newsfeed is built around delivering contradicting points of view?

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#96
"...but you can find super-informed people on both sides of the question. That’s why it’s a live debate."

It's just rhetoric. Anything can become a debate, such as who won the 2020 presidential election, if one side is willing to make up facts and repeat them over and over. Proponents of the Big Lie are super-informed, insofar as they have a lot of lies they can say with a straight face that act as stand-ins for actual information. And if they keep asserting those lies, the other side is forced to respond, hence a debate. There is still no merit to the Big Lie, but now it must be discussed as if there was. THAT is why there is a live debate.

And then there is this nonsense: "overall political climate was much more right-wing in the 1990s."

That is so outrageously false I'm not sure why anyone is supposed to think this person is worth reading. Just think of how many mainstream politicians will swear up and down that the election was stolen in 2020. I guess if you pretend "right wing" is about policy you could craft a convoluted argument that today's Republicans are less conservative (as the author does), but that's not what the right wing is about. The right wing is about the Big Lie, it's about illiberalism, it's about demonizing the media and institutions and political opponents - all the policy stuff is just window dressing.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#97
post #61

Once misinformation becomes accepted as truth, or a valid mindset even, it doesn't stand out as blatant falsehood. Questioning whether 1 + 2 is actually 3 or a secret way to hide the true meaning of pi is akin to a dog chasing its tail to excercise his brain.

Nobody feels the need to label you as misinformation when you go around saying 1+1=3. They will simply know you’re a cuckoo and ignore you. The misinformation label seems to only get applied to information that could be harmful to a political party

Take the "flat earth" people. What they say is factually wrong. But there isn't a flat-earthist political party that wants to change our military deployments because our current deployments are based on a false topology of the planet, or change our immigration policy because Central America doesn't actually connect to Mexico, or something like that. There's no political agenda that flows out of the flat earth nonsense. That's what makes it "nonsense" rather than "misinformation".

On the other end of the scale, there is "disinformation". That's where someone is deliberately and systematically trying to persuade you do believe what is false, in order for them to carry out their agenda. Russia has been running a disinformation campaign against the US for several years. (On both sides - trying to drive extremism and destroy the political center, in order to weaken the US.) One could say that both major political parties in the US are also running disinformation campaigns.

"Misinformation" is kind of in the middle, in my view. It's not necessarily part of a large-scale organized campaign, but it's not just a nonsense belief with no consequences. So people care about misinformation in a way that they don't care about the flat earthers, because misinformation can cause more harm.

But people don't seem to take as seriously as they should the damage that long-running, coordinated disinformation campaigns can cause (and, in fact, are causing).

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He doesn't think about the effects of a higher availability information with a lower ability to seek out other contradicting points of view. This is a baffling claim. Why on earth would you believe that people now have a lower ability to seek out contradicting points of view?

Which profit driven advertising based search engine or newsfeed is built around delivering contradicting points of view?

[deleted]

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#99

"...but you can find super-informed people on both sides of the question. That’s why it’s a live debate." It's just rhetoric. Anything can become a debate, such as who won the 2020 presidential election, if one side is willing to make up facts and repeat them over and over. Proponents of the Big Lie are super-informed, insofar as they have a lot of lies they can say with a straight face that act as stand-ins for actu…

I don't think that's what the right wing is about at all. All the conservative pundits I listen to think Trump behaved disgracefully after the election and that there is still no evidence of sufficient voter irregularities to turn the election.

Many still believe it's a major problem that states like Pennsylvania violated their own laws during the election, which should be illegal, but handling that is a separate issue. Many also believe it's a problem that our election processes are so insecure and that we need more election security. That's separate from believing the 2020 election was stolen in the sense that provably illegal voting activity swung the election.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He doesn't think about the effects of a higher availability information with a lower ability to seek out other contradicting points of view. This is a baffling claim. Why on earth would you believe that people now have a lower ability to seek out contradicting points of view?

Which profit driven advertising based search engine or newsfeed is built around delivering contradicting points of view?

Replace "profit driven such-and-such" with "print newspaper" and the rhetorical question works equally well.

I think the worst you can say against social media is that it feeds you low-quality highly-partisan sources if you seem to like such sources. But your ability to seek out better or contradicting information is not diminished. If anything it is far greater than it has ever been. "Stuff that is against $my_favorite_belief" is a Google search away. Wikipedia alone will usually give you a fairly balanced treatment of a topic with extensive references to diverse perspectives and evidence.

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