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Time to run or time to walk? Your body knows the answer

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Re: Time to run or time to walk? Your body knows the answer

#91

Post by slibhb »

bluecalm wrote: post #88
slibhb wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started running three years ago and looked into this quite a bit as I had plantar fasciitis for about 6 months this past summer. My conclusion was that there's no good evidence that foot strike matters in itself. Mostly everyone agrees that "overstriding" [1] is an issue but there's also no evidence for that. Also, not all heel strikers are driving their feet brutally into the ground. For distance running, most peo…

I am familiar with those studies. Still I would like to see the footage of actual elite runners heel striking. I watched quite a lot of it and haven't seen one. My suspicion is that those elite heel strikers are just midfoot strikers in shoes with pronounced heel. As to your studies: the first one doesn't include elite runners so isn't very relevant. The other one looks like meta analysis of other older studies. I am…

How fast you sprint is a function of how hard your feet hit the ground. They aren't "brushing" the ground at all. I didn't say the heel hits the ground while sprinting.

edit - Googled for 30 seconds and found this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=andAaS6Lyc8

The first runner he talks about uses a midfoot strike, the second uses a heel strike. They're both elite marathon runners.

As I said, my conclusion from having looked into this is that this debate is folk science. It might be correct but there's no compelling evidence.

Re: Time to run or time to walk? Your body knows the answer

#92

Post by noman-land »

go_elmo wrote: post #77
agumonkey wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had knee and slight back pain, anf always tried to mechanically aim at the smoothest impact (landing on foot ball, ensure enough forward momentum) yet,unless a high enough speed, I found it harder on my joints. To the point where jogging heel striking like a newb felt nicer. I'm still dumbfounded.

It takes months to years for bones and non muscle tissue to adapt to new stresses. Took me 1 year of regular runs to adapt to non heel strikes, but it happens eventually.

Any tips for a non-runner about how to speed up this adaptation? I've been "walking differently" for about 18 months and still feel that the foot/ankle/calf bits may not be ready for running.

Re: Time to run or time to walk? Your body knows the answer

#93

Post by go_elmo »

noman-land wrote: post #92
go_elmo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes months to years for bones and non muscle tissue to adapt to new stresses. Took me 1 year of regular runs to adapt to non heel strikes, but it happens eventually.

Any tips for a non-runner about how to speed up this adaptation? I've been "walking differently" for about 18 months and still feel that the foot/ankle/calf bits may not be ready for running.

I dont think theres a magic way, just optimizing regular stimuli of intermediate (not too hard) stresses is my best guess (similar to any exercising) start doing shorter routes more frequently, then increase both parameters slowly, thats how Im doing it, it got a habit and it feels great!

Re: Time to run or time to walk? Your body knows the answer

#94

Post by fungiblecog »

gundmc wrote: post #12

> You’ve probably seen it on TV multiple times. Exhausted, depleted of energy, and barely capable of taking another step, elite race walkers collapse as soon as they reach the finish line. I'm not sure if I have unusual TV habits or if the author is overestimating the amount of watch time and coverage race walking gets.

Probably an age thing.

Back in the day - before the internet - there wasn’t much choice of what to watch. I saw a lot of walking races on TV in my youth (in the UK) but haven’t seen one in the last 10-15 years.

Re: Time to run or time to walk? Your body knows the answer

#95

Post by gumby »

pengaru wrote: post #9

There are more efficient modes of running that aren't really available when walking, and any experienced marathoner knows how to exploit this. It took me years of occasional running before it all clicked, despite more experienced friends having shared youtube videos on the subject. I'd always been running in a fashion more like a slowed down sprint when trying to pace myself. But that's not the efficient way, the eff…

I recently sprained my ankle and couldn't run (or walk). Once I could hobble around I put on my hiking boots which have some extreme ankle support and walked the dog around the neighborhood.

I was quite astonished that my stride was quite low energy. That is, I already knew approximately how many calories my watch reported if I walked (in my running shoes) the dog on a given route vs running that route. Apparently I had learned a much more efficient stride in the boot over the years, so I was able to walk the route in the usual time but by burning 20% fewer calories and at lower heart rate. I do a lot of backpacking so am used to long distance walking in those boots, but didn't know I used a different stride to do so.

This is all per my Apple Watch so take the measurements with a grain of salt. But at least it was like:like.

Re: Time to run or time to walk? Your body knows the answer

#96

Post by bluecalm »

slibhb wrote: post #91
bluecalm wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am familiar with those studies. Still I would like to see the footage of actual elite runners heel striking. I watched quite a lot of it and haven't seen one. My suspicion is that those elite heel strikers are just midfoot strikers in shoes with pronounced heel. As to your studies: the first one doesn't include elite runners so isn't very relevant. The other one looks like meta analysis of other older studies. I am…

How fast you sprint is a function of how hard your feet hit the ground. They aren't "brushing" the ground at all. I didn't say the heel hits the ground while sprinting. edit - Googled for 30 seconds and found this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=andAaS6Lyc8 The first runner he talks about uses a midfoot strike, the second uses a heel strike. They're both elite marathon runners. As I said, my conclusion from ha…

How fast your sprint is a function how much backward force there is. You don't drive "down", you drive back. Try driving down and you will see it's impossible to do with any kind of force without the heel touching the ground.

Thanks for the video. The guy in the assistance crew is in fact heel striking. It's not classical extend your leg to hit the ground and roll novice runner kind of heel striking as his leg already moves back and his knee is already bent when he hits the ground but he does hit the ground with the heel first.

I wonder if it's because of the shoes. I don't think he would do that in flats/track race shoes.

Re: Time to run or time to walk? Your body knows the answer

#97

Post by dilyevsky »

asoneth wrote: post #87
jazzyjackson wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"proper footwear" is subject of controversy, I could never run without getting shin splints in any kind of athletic shoe, I could never figure out how not to heel strike... Finally I tried barefoot shoes and cautiously increased my distance, I can finally get to that point of leaning forward and hitting mid-foot and feeling the springiness, feels way easier but now my heartrate is the bottleneck.

Tossing in a second datapoint in favor of adding some barefoot running to one's training plan. I started running with classmates without learning proper form and had joint pain in knees and hips within the first 5 km. It never felt good and I never got faster. I started practicing barefoot a couple times a week to work on form. After the first few (painful) lessons I managed to improve my form and I could run faster…

That’s just called gaining miles slowly in progression. Most everyone has injuries when gaining too many miles/week from basically zero. If you are prone to bone injuries all that switching to mid foot or especially barefoot without addressing bone density issues will likely do is trade your shin splints for those awesome metatarsal stress fractures that take forever to heal

Re: Time to run or time to walk? Your body knows the answer

#98

Post by jazzyjackson »

dilyevsky wrote: post #97
asoneth wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tossing in a second datapoint in favor of adding some barefoot running to one's training plan. I started running with classmates without learning proper form and had joint pain in knees and hips within the first 5 km. It never felt good and I never got faster. I started practicing barefoot a couple times a week to work on form. After the first few (painful) lessons I managed to improve my form and I could run faster…

That’s just called gaining miles slowly in progression. Most everyone has injuries when gaining too many miles/week from basically zero. If you are prone to bone injuries all that switching to mid foot or especially barefoot without addressing bone density issues will likely do is trade your shin splints for those awesome metatarsal stress fractures that take forever to heal

I don't think this explanation really tracks with the parent comments, where we just never gained miles because it hurt to run, and after switching styles to mid-foot strikes, we can run as far as we want. For the record, my next injury was 'misaligned patella' because running was pretty much the only exercise I was doing and I strengthened one quad without strengthening the others, so my kneecap was being pulled out of alignment. Lesson learned, actually do a workout that targets opposing muscles, squats, leg lifts etc. Haven't run into any bone density issues yet.

Re: Time to run or time to walk? Your body knows the answer

#99

Post by asoneth »

dilyevsky wrote: post #97
asoneth wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tossing in a second datapoint in favor of adding some barefoot running to one's training plan. I started running with classmates without learning proper form and had joint pain in knees and hips within the first 5 km. It never felt good and I never got faster. I started practicing barefoot a couple times a week to work on form. After the first few (painful) lessons I managed to improve my form and I could run faster…

That’s just called gaining miles slowly in progression. Most everyone has injuries when gaining too many miles/week from basically zero. If you are prone to bone injuries all that switching to mid foot or especially barefoot without addressing bone density issues will likely do is trade your shin splints for those awesome metatarsal stress fractures that take forever to heal

Gaining miles slowly is excellent advice, probably the most important advice for new runners. It's a mistake I certainly made more than once both barefoot and not, though thankfully it never resulted in anything as severe as shin splints or metatarsal fractures.

These days I'm generally pretty good about listening carefully to my body and respecting my limits -- I'll stop the run or ride if something starts to feel off. It's an approach that's served reasonably well for more than a decade. Though I can afford to take things slowly because my long-term goal isn't to to set speed records but to keep running well into old(er) age.

Re: Time to run or time to walk? Your body knows the answer

#100

Post by noisy_boy »

_0ffh wrote: post #72
noisy_boy wrote: post #49

For someone who is trying to return to regular walking/running, I find a mix of both works well for me. Stretch and start walking faster to warm your body up, run until your heart/legs don't want to go anymore, resume walking to recover and then run again and so on. I find that doing this creates less resistance in my mind because I'm more attentive/easy going with my body and the overall session is less punishing -…

Funny, when I was a boy scout I was taught alternating between running and walking by the name of "Wolfsmarsch" (wolve's march). I've been told it's supposed to be a happy compromise between moving fast and being able to keep moving for a prolonged period of time.

Interesting - I didn't know this. I just came up with this approach because I noticed that my mental resolve waned at the thought of running throughout the session without taking breaks (which is what I did during my previous failed attempts at maintaining a regular workout regime).
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