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UK launches “No Place To Hide” propaganda campaign to ban E2EE

noplacetohide.org.uk

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Re: UK launches “No Place To Hide” propaganda campaign to ban E2EE

#91

Post by collegeburner »

styeco wrote: post #25

Sorry for the choice words, but shit like this makes my blood boil. You're not trying to "keep our children safe" motherfucker, and you know it. You're trying to prevent people from being able to have private conversations, so your secret agencies can harvest all the data from everyone easily. To phrase it as "but think of the children" is instrumentalizing the actual victims of child abuse and you should be ashamed.

It's a great tactic. Gun grabbers have been using it successfully in the UK, US and everywhere else.

Re: UK launches “No Place To Hide” propaganda campaign to ban E2EE

#92

Post by xg15 »

NextHendrix wrote: post #8

Not a web person, but isn't https end-to-end encryption

It's encryption, but not end-to-end.

My understanding is, to be E2E encrypted, the keys must only be known by you and the actual other user you're communicating with. With https, this is not the case: you're only communicating with the server, which then relays the messages. However, the server can see everything.

You can use the term in different contexts, depending on what you consider the "ends": If you think of your machine as one end and the server as the other, it is technically E2E encrypted.

But in the more meaningful sense where your device is one end and your communication partner's device is the other end, it is not.

Re: UK launches “No Place To Hide” propaganda campaign to ban E2EE

#94

Post by collegeburner »

charcircuit wrote: post #78
samwillis wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you think our police will have the resources do do anything for those 99%? They are already doing it all out in the open on public platforms, on street corners. Encryption isn’t a barer for enforcement in those cases. The issue is the worst 1% and they will continue to use encryption anyway.

>And you think our police will have the resources do do anything for those 99%? I wish they did. As more data aggregators become available to LE I hope it can make more people responsible for their actions. Technology will allow LE to scale to actually handle enforcing the law over large regions using fewer actual humans.

No it should be hard to reliably enforce the law. Otherwise we have a police state and it is easy to enforce authiritarian laws.

Re: UK launches “No Place To Hide” propaganda campaign to ban E2EE

#95

Post by monocasa »

RHSeeger wrote: post #50
monocasa wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only in the sense that Zoom got lambasted for calling their original setup E2EE. "Well technically our servers that log everything are a end of the communication". At least in the states they faced legal penalties for such a claim (albeit a slap on the wrist).

If the other "end" you are talking to is their server, then it's end-to-end encryption. If the other end is another person's computer, and their server is only one jump on the way there, then it's not end-to-end. Clearly, with Slack, "their server" was not the other "end" in anyone's mind; so they were being disingenuous. But for many cases (banking), their server _is_ the other end.

Except that wouldn't even be affected by this legislation because the whole shitck is forcing servers to log everything. I guarantee your bank is already logging everything.

Re: UK launches “No Place To Hide” propaganda campaign to ban E2EE

#96

Post by mrtksn »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #73
mrtksn wrote: post #30

Let's assume that it doesn't have any nefarious motives, What's the argument against doing regular police work to catch criminals? Yes, I understand that it's extremely tempting to be able to peak into every persons communications but that has become feasible only the last decade or so. Just do your job the way it has aways been done. Haven't we seen how endless are the ambitions of politicians even in the most democ…

In fairness, perhaps the problem of doing it the way "it's always been done" is that the criminals don't operate the same anymore, more than likely they aren't meeting up in dockside speakeasies, moreover they're probably not talking over phone lines either. Pimps and drug dealers don't need to stand on the street corners and advertise their stuff to make sales. Crime has changed. If their communication has mostly go…

"The old ways" doesn't have to be without using technology, what I mean by "old ways" is actually without having complete access to all the information. I don't say go tap phone lines, what I say is do the investigations without having access on every single thing that every one said or thought. Go seize servers, go install fake GSM towers to target the people under investigation.

I don't see why not having access to complete communications should warrant Mad Max. You don't need to have access to everyones data to notice that kids are disappearing or firearms are being traded or something like that.

Re: UK launches “No Place To Hide” propaganda campaign to ban E2EE

#97

Post by LatteLazy »

ethanbond wrote: post #83
LatteLazy wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the stepping stone between the two: you cannot believe the motivation is to keep kids safe if the action makes kids less safe. That doesn't prove a specific other motivation. But it does pretty decisively disprove the stated motivation.

Ah, I see. You’re saying the threat of someone successfully breaching a child’s data and appropriate keys from a service is more significant than the threat of just internet weirdos relying on E2E to transact child pornography with impunity.

Pretty much. That is what happened every time other people have been given access.

We're in the middle of a whole bunch of cases of policemen being sacked or charged here for asking our underage girls on dates, keeping and sharing nudes from crime victims phones etc.

And remember: if someone is lying about why they're doing something that's further evidence it's not something you want. If they had a good reason, they'd be up front about it...

Re: UK launches “No Place To Hide” propaganda campaign to ban E2EE

#98

Post by marginalia_nu »

mrtksn wrote: post #96
marginalia_nu wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fairness, perhaps the problem of doing it the way "it's always been done" is that the criminals don't operate the same anymore, more than likely they aren't meeting up in dockside speakeasies, moreover they're probably not talking over phone lines either. Pimps and drug dealers don't need to stand on the street corners and advertise their stuff to make sales. Crime has changed. If their communication has mostly go…

"The old ways" doesn't have to be without using technology, what I mean by "old ways" is actually without having complete access to all the information. I don't say go tap phone lines, what I say is do the investigations without having access on every single thing that every one said or thought. Go seize servers, go install fake GSM towers to target the people under investigation. I don't see why not having access to…

The old ways also hinged on people actually meeting up, on criminal enterprises producing a legible paper trail. Seizing encrypted hardware or intercepting encrypted traffic just doesn't work.

We also mustn't forget that an integral part of old fashioned policework is just grabbing some random homeless person found in the area and beating them with a nightstick until they admit to the crime.

Re: UK launches “No Place To Hide” propaganda campaign to ban E2EE

#100

Post by hooby »

Child abuse is a serious topic. It should be treated seriously.

Evoking a topic like that, creating fear and outrage in an attempt to sway public opinion - by encouraging an emotional response rather than a rational one - is to be considered shameless manipulation, regardless of what agenda it's being used for.

Would any campaign that takes child abuse truly serious rely on tactless and tasteless marketing campaigns like that? Seems a bit unlikely. People who take child abuse seriously and understand that it's a very complex and multi-faceted topic, tend to really dislike seeing it misused for scare-mongering like that.

Did any of the previous marketing-campaigns that did rely on misusing the topic in manipulative ways result in an actual reduction of child abuse cases? Not that I am aware of?

Have any of those previous alleged anti-child-abuse surveillance measures been rolled back, after they have shown to be completely ineffective at actually combating child abuse? Well, some have actually been abolished again on the grounds of being unconstitutional. But other than that, being not effective has mostly only resulted in loud demand for even more, equally inefficient, surveillance methods.

I really think that people should be called out over misusing the topic of child abuse as a populist scare mongering tactic to sway public opinion. That sort of thing needs to stop - regardless of what anyone thinks of the measures it's being employed for.

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