Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A low-cost and shielding-free ultra-low-field brain MRI scanner

nature.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 151 posts

Re: A low-cost and shielding-free ultra-low-field brain MRI scanner

#91

Post by qrian »

lostlogin wrote: post #85
qrian wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, these scanners rely on complex superconducting electromagnet/cryogenics designs and ever increasingly powerful electronics (including gradient and radiofrequency power systems) for fast imaging and/or advanced imaging features like brain functional MRI and diffusion tractography, yet routine clinical uses only necessitate a small portion of these imaging protocols. I guess this implies not?

That's talking about a conventional scanner, the article is about a permanent magnet and a more straight forward design.

I guess then I will have to wait for someone much more knowledgable in mechanical engineering than me to answer. Thanks for the input.

Re: A low-cost and shielding-free ultra-low-field brain MRI scanner

#92

Post by lostlogin »

iancmceachern wrote: post #16
a-dub wrote: post #5

woah. woah. woah. hold on a second here... are we comfortable enough with understanding all of the behavior of deep learning models to where we can confidently put them in the pipeline for diagnostic clinical imaging? i'm okay with using them for image analysis, but denoising and other image production tasks seems dangerous. how do you know what you're looking at is real as opposed to something that just looks convin…

Yes. This is past tense, other companies are already doing this, in the clinic.

A link: https://www.siemens-healthineers.com/magnetic-resonance-imag...

Re: A low-cost and shielding-free ultra-low-field brain MRI scanner

#93

Post by [deleted] »

ISL wrote: post #47

Edit: This post was intended as a reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30209618 , presently below > The lead author, Dr. Craig Bennett, wanted to get something fresh, so he headed in to the grocery story first thing in the morning. At the fish counter, he spoke the words that will echo down the centuries as a testimony to the dedication and drive of neuroscientists throughout the ages: >"I need a full length…

[deleted]

Re: A low-cost and shielding-free ultra-low-field brain MRI scanner

#94

Post by ubercore »

ck2 wrote: post #43

Now build a truck with MRI in the back and drive to where it's most needed. They already do this with DEXA body scans. Examples: https://bodyandbone.com/mobile-dexa-services https://body-comp.com/testing/mobile-dexa/ https://www.bodyspec.com/

There have been CT scanners put in helicopters as well: https://www.auntminnieeurope.com/index.aspx?sec=ser&sub=def&...

Re: A low-cost and shielding-free ultra-low-field brain MRI scanner

#95

Post by fluidcruft »

queuebert wrote: post #70
TheJoeMan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, sometimes all you need is “do I have a baseball sized tumor or not”.

Or a massive brain hemorrhage.

That's generally been the challenge with these super low-field scanners--they can't get T2*/susceptibility that's anywhere close to useful (yet?).

Re: A low-cost and shielding-free ultra-low-field brain MRI scanner

#96

Post by fluidcruft »

a-dub wrote: post #5

woah. woah. woah. hold on a second here... are we comfortable enough with understanding all of the behavior of deep learning models to where we can confidently put them in the pipeline for diagnostic clinical imaging? i'm okay with using them for image analysis, but denoising and other image production tasks seems dangerous. how do you know what you're looking at is real as opposed to something that just looks convin…

Deep learning reconstructions are already marketed/sold in high-end commercial scanners.

Re: A low-cost and shielding-free ultra-low-field brain MRI scanner

#97

Post by lostlogin »

ska wrote: post #42
ratg13 wrote: post #33

When we say "low-cost", just how low cost are we talking here? I skimmed through the article, but still didn't comprehend how much something like this might actually cost.

The up front cost is only one part of the story. Siting a conventional MRI is pretty expensive (often requires a new build 6 figures for sure) and operation costs can run up to even 5 fig/month for powerful ones. They could probably get one of these out the door for approx 100k. Clinical scanners are typically 10x+ that. Siting cost would be next to nothing, and operating costs low too.

This is a good comment and still underplays the cost of MRI. Getting a reasonable 3T setup going will be a lot more than US$1 million. Running costs are very high, with a scanner lifetime service contract being somewhere between 50% and 100% the original cost of the MRI scanner.

Additionally, the scanner cost is only part the price. There is the Faraday cage, chilling, room setup, building strengthening, scanner install and shipping cost, peripheral equipment (compatible monitoring, injectors, compatible beds and chairs etc). It probably comes in at a doubling of the cost of the actual scanner.

While reducing the cost of the install and running will help a lot, the staffing is the larger cost in radiology, as techs and radiologists are expensive.

Costs will vary hugely depending on where you are in the world, but it isn't cheap anywhere.

Re: A low-cost and shielding-free ultra-low-field brain MRI scanner

#98

Post by matheusmoreira »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #75
TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if its practical to DIY your own production line automation today with Arduino. Like if I had a simple product, could I buy stuff off the shelf and integrate it myself in my garage and end up with a little mini-factory? Exciting to think about.

I obsess over this concept. I am a robotics engineer and my dream is local manufacturing with small DIY machines. But it's a lot of work! When I have a little more time I want to teach community robotics classes and build machines that makes shoes and hot food and other important goods, designed and built as a community. I designed a cheap large format laser cutter [1][2] and now I am designing shoes that can be made…

That is so cool. I wish you success.

Re: A low-cost and shielding-free ultra-low-field brain MRI scanner

#99

Post by jacquesm »

robwwilliams wrote: post #57
jacquesm wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most famous would probably be the IG Nobel winning study that detected brain activity in a store-bought salmon: A store-bought dead salmon. I am assuming that most salmons bought in stores are dead but that particular detail is rather relevant here. Also that had me laughing, what a great move.

Not sure the dead salmon is relevant. That paper is focused on false discovery in FUNCTIONAL MRI. Different can of fish. Most clinical work is structural MRI.

The chances of finding brain activity in a dead salmon are a bit lower than finding it in one that is alive.

Re: A low-cost and shielding-free ultra-low-field brain MRI scanner

#100

Post by fluidcruft »

doctoring wrote: post #74
littlestymaar wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this question answered by a PET scan and not MRI ?

Usually not! PET scans are limited in resolution when you get down to the sub-5 mm or so range due to scanner technology and fundamental limits of the physics of positron/electron annihilation & photon emission. A typical MRI (i.e. alas, not what this article is describing) can usually resolve something at that size and identify characteristics like diffusion restriction or contrast enhancement which can confirm meta…

The flip-side of that is that PET is vastly multiple orders of magnitude far more sensitive than MRI. So while PET may not be able to localize as well as MRI, it can detect smaller things if the targeting of the radioisotope is good.
Post reply on HN