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Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting

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Re: Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting

#91
post #80
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think makes it inferior and mediocre?

Reasons: -------- 1. Windows was never originally designed to work as a Server side operating system at the first place. They started to drive it on the server side when they first discovered the Internet had a huge commercial potential to sell machines on the backend. There fore all means of getting things done on a windows machine for a developer have to go somehow through a set GUI's to get work done programatical…

Foreword: I've been using various flavors of Linux for a good chunk of the last decade (since 2001) and totally ignored Windows until last year, so I am no Windows fanboy.

2. This may be true for the good old cmd.exe but.. have you tried PowerShell? I've been playing with PowerShell 2 on Windows 7 and found that it leaves little to be desired. It is self-documenting (a-la Emacs). It can be extended using .NET. You can pipe entire objects instead of unstructured text streams. Coming from a strong UNIX background I /am/ impressed and actually think it is way better than a POSIX-compatible shell. I even wrote a couple of scripts [1] to post-configure my Windows 7 installation in a similar way I do on Linux with Puppet [2].

7. This is true even for Windows, in my experience. Every time I do a Google search for troubleshooting I am directed to Microsoft's Knowledge Base or the (free) MSDN website.

11. AFAIK, you can uninstall the GUI component on Windows Server 2008 (you will be left with a heavily stripped down GUI, without the usual graphical shell)

12. It may be a pain but at least it is a consistent way to store configuration settings and it is widely adopted as such. Compare it with the plethora of different configuration file formats used on a typical Linux/Unix workstation (Mac OS X being the exception since they seem to consistently use XML-based property lists almost everywhere). Each system has its strengths and weaknesses but I wouldn't call the Windows Registry "a mess".

I don't comment on your other points either because I don't have enough first-hand experience with it (1, 4, 5, 9, 10) or because I partially agree with you (3, 6, 8).

Anyway, it seems that you're a coming from a strong UNIX mindset and that you try to forcefully shoehorn it to Windows (3rd and 4th points), along with (my guess) lack of experience in certain areas of Windows administration (2nd point).

As for me: I was really impressed by Windows 7. Some things I really miss are a decent Window Manager (but this is true of every commercial OS I've ever tried) and a good software management solution (either a decent, standardized, package manager, an AppDir mechanism like OS X or both).

_____

  [1]: https://github.com/lvillani/powershell-2
  [2]: http://puppetlabs.com/

Re: Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting

#92
post #33

Wouldn't this draw anti-trust battles? Since complying with EFI signing is against the license of one of the only other major alternatives to Windows, this would not bode well for Microsoft.

Wouldn't this draw anti-trust battles?

Could be -- it sounds like a possible "tie-out" (a variation on tie-in). AFAIK There haven't been many tie-out cases, but as antitrust litigator George Gordon [1] put it a few years back, "The term “tie out” is often used to refer to arrangements in which a license prohibits a licensee from dealing in and/or developing competing, noninfringing technologies. [Footnote omitted] Such arrangements have been found to be intellectual property misuse and could form the basis for an antitrust claim as well." [2]

If MS were to do something like this, I imagine Gary Reback [3], its nemesis in previous antitrust battles, would be all over it ....

[1] http://www.dechert.com/george_gordon/

[2] http://www.dechert.com/library/Analyzing%20IP%20License%20-%...

[3] http://www.garyreback.com/garyreback.html

Re: Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting

#93
It won't happen, and if it does happen, it won't matter.

Can you imagine the Anti-Trust problems this would create? Microsoft is still a big fat target for anti-trust lawsuits and this one is pretty blatant.

And if it does happen, while we're waiting for the Justice Department to end it I'm pretty sure the Linux hackers will find a way around it. When there is a will, there is a way.

Re: Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting

#94
post #80
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think makes it inferior and mediocre?

Reasons: -------- 1. Windows was never originally designed to work as a Server side operating system at the first place. They started to drive it on the server side when they first discovered the Internet had a huge commercial potential to sell machines on the backend. There fore all means of getting things done on a windows machine for a developer have to go somehow through a set GUI's to get work done programatical…

Not to defend Windows here, because it certainly has its flaws, but you're so deluded it's not even funny any more. You seem to like 'openness' so much, but the concept of 'open mind' seems to be completely lost on you.

"There fore all means of getting things done on a windows machine for a developer have to go somehow through a set GUI's to get work done programatically."

This alone is enough to discard anything you say about this topic. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Everything in Windows is programmable, through a standard object model, and the facilities to put them into any program are standardized, too.

"Which is not easily possible with windows, heck using those tools on windows is big pain."

Windows != Unix. If you are a bricklayer and you get into gardening, would you complain that your concrete mixer doesn't work well for shoveling a garden? Unix tools on Windows is a crutch for people who refuse to adjust to the environment they're in (or as a band aid for a quick and dirty port of Unix functionality).

"tools like DBus. Sockets et al are vastly superior in UNIX than windows."

Windows != Unix. The concurrent tasks model in Windows is based on threads, not process spawning. Don't take your Unix prejudices to Windows when you write software for Windows. Are you seriously suggesting there are no working ipc mechanisms in Windows? There are vast amounts of functionality to do so, and on a much deeper level than just 'pipe text from one process to the next' (i.e., a proper object model that can be used to share code written in several languages and with which you can pass objects and not just text).

"Lack of multiuser login,"

WTF are you talking about? Have you ever seen a Windows box since Windows 95?

"Registry is a pain on Windows, I don't have to worry about those hassles on UNIX."

What? Are you saying you prefer 25 different file formats, spread out in non-standard ways, without a standardized layout? Or are you saying that editing Apache config files with sed and awk is a good idea? If so, you're clearly off your rockers. Of course you can hack together something that 'mostly works', but at least with the registry you have a standard format, standardized and cross-language APIs and a (more or less) standard organization of data.

Now I'm not defending the implementation of the registry; it has outlived its design. But being against the idea is lunacy - why do you think the Gnome guys realized in the early 2000's that they needed something similar?

Re: Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting

#95
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reasons: -------- 1. Windows was never originally designed to work as a Server side operating system at the first place. They started to drive it on the server side when they first discovered the Internet had a huge commercial potential to sell machines on the backend. There fore all means of getting things done on a windows machine for a developer have to go somehow through a set GUI's to get work done programatical…

Foreword: I've been using various flavors of Linux for a good chunk of the last decade (since 2001) and totally ignored Windows until last year, so I am no Windows fanboy. 2. This may be true for the good old cmd.exe but.. have you tried PowerShell? I've been playing with PowerShell 2 on Windows 7 and found that it leaves little to be desired. It is self-documenting (a-la Emacs). It can be extended using .NET. You ca…

it seems that you're a coming from a strong UNIX mindset and that you try to forcefully shoehorn it to Windows

I come from backend server based mindset and find it difficult to shoehorn the concepts there to a desktop operating system. For no justifiable reason. I still see no reason why I must use Windows on my backend.

I fail to see the need to endlessly shoehorn Windows for all my backend tasks(powershell included) when I can get everything of that in a Vanilla linux installation.

If you say Windows is good desktop operating system, you are correct in your own right. But literally there is no comparison between the UNIX and Windows on the server end.

On the similar lines, there are many things in Windows (like directory share on network, printer settings) which are far more easier to use than on Linux.

Re: Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting

#96
post #94
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reasons: -------- 1. Windows was never originally designed to work as a Server side operating system at the first place. They started to drive it on the server side when they first discovered the Internet had a huge commercial potential to sell machines on the backend. There fore all means of getting things done on a windows machine for a developer have to go somehow through a set GUI's to get work done programatical…

Not to defend Windows here, because it certainly has its flaws, but you're so deluded it's not even funny any more. You seem to like 'openness' so much, but the concept of 'open mind' seems to be completely lost on you. "There fore all means of getting things done on a windows machine for a developer have to go somehow through a set GUI's to get work done programatically." This alone is enough to discard anything you…

Here's the thing about the registry: with a bunch of config files in /etc, I already have many, many tools for managing them because they're just text files like every other text file. With the Windows registry, if I want version control or something like that, I have to invent the tools myself. This is a waste of my time unless I am in the business of selling products for Windows.

UNIX is about being generic. Yes, it means Apache and Varnish have different config file formats. But it also means that I already have the tools I need to automate my configuration so I don't have to care.

(Yes, Windows is programmable. But when you start having to compile software to automate your deployment, it becomes engineering and becomes a task of its own. Compare this to a quick command-line oneliner, and you'll see why people prefer UNIX. Engineering is about knowing how much you need to get something accomplished. Sometimes you do need to write highly-advanced configuration software. But other times, you don't. Windows doesn't give you that choice.)

Re: Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting

#97
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never used Windows servers, and I am curious how do you do things which are obvious on Linux on a windows server? 1. Can SQL server deployment be automated? I remember reading somewhere it is mostly GUI administration, though things might have changed with WMI. 2. How do you manage IIS? Say you need to restart IIS on 200+ servers? 3. What is the remote model? Windows doesn't have a decent command line, so ssh…

Two words: Power Shell. Well, one word. PS is a "decent command line" for Windows, that can handle most of the things you discuss pretty well.

Why should I learn a new toolchain when I already have one that's just as good but has been around for 30+ years? It's fun to reinvent the wheel, but as a user, sometimes enough is enough. Just give me bash and the coreutils, kthx.

Re: Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting

#98
"We will continue to support the legacy BIOS interface, but machines using the UEFI interface will have significantly richer capabilities."

== Will not block Linux or any other OS booting. Secondly anti-trust cases would kill MS if they would block any other OS, so they won't.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/09/20/reengineering-...

Re: Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting

#99
There was a time when Windows Logo was considered prestigious, respectable and trendy thing.

With such a practice Microsoft is quickly approaching a time when Windows Logo will be perceived like a hot-iron branding of robbers and other criminals in the medieval era.

Re: Windows 8 OEM specs may block Linux booting

#100
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Foreword: I've been using various flavors of Linux for a good chunk of the last decade (since 2001) and totally ignored Windows until last year, so I am no Windows fanboy. 2. This may be true for the good old cmd.exe but.. have you tried PowerShell? I've been playing with PowerShell 2 on Windows 7 and found that it leaves little to be desired. It is self-documenting (a-la Emacs). It can be extended using .NET. You ca…

it seems that you're a coming from a strong UNIX mindset and that you try to forcefully shoehorn it to Windows I come from backend server based mindset and find it difficult to shoehorn the concepts there to a desktop operating system. For no justifiable reason. I still see no reason why I must use Windows on my backend. I fail to see the need to endlessly shoehorn Windows for all my backend tasks(powershell included…

To say that Windows is a perfectly competent and acceptable server OS that is the equal of Linux for the majority of usecases is a different proposition from saying that you must use Windows on [your] backend, or should shoehorn Windows for all [your] backend tasks
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