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How to Mislead with Facts

consilienceproject.org

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Re: How to Mislead with Facts

#91

Post by ncmncm »

clairity wrote: post #88
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Misrepresenting facts in this way is still a form of lying. Speaking technical truths doesn't change that. Most lies aren't complete fabrications, honestly, even when they do contain a few.

i was told growing up that this was the difference between being honest and being truthful: honesty is about telling allcomers everything you know (or believe, with appropriate caveats) to be true, whereas being truthful is simply not advancing as truth things you know (or believe) to be false. in any case, i've watched npr and nyt, two of my mostly former news sources, wrench from simply being biased to being outrig…

Through 200x, NPR was always having CIA flacks on. They seem not to be doing that anymore, since about Manning/Snowden.

Re: How to Mislead with Facts

#92

Post by clairity »

Ma8ee wrote: post #41
xdennis wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the jobs are less valuable, not due to who's doing them but due to the market (i.e. all of us) seeing them as less valuable. Teachers and nannies aren't paid a whole lot because they're easily replaceable, not because they're jobs dominated by women. Doctors used to be exclusively men. Have salaries gone down now that women make up a significant percent of the number of doctors?

> Because the jobs are less valuable, not due to who's doing them but due to the market (i.e. all of us) seeing them as less valuable. It is a rather sad and naive view of the value of work if you think that it is decided by market value. My work as a developer has a high market value because what I do is generating revenue for my employer. The work of the teacher who shapes the future of our children or the work of…

(good) teachers generate great value and positive externalities into the future, but are simply unable to capture that value generation because of the time factor. many teachers accept pride and esteem in lieu of economic gain, but they should get paid accordingly as well if we had a fair politicoeconomic system.

economics in general has no answer for this differential temporal factor in value creation vs value capture. it's all predicated on immediate, atomic transactions, although the concept of externalities at least acknowledges the issue.

Re: How to Mislead with Facts

#93

Post by Ma8ee »

drran wrote: post #75
Ma8ee wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then you can take another step and ask why professions dominated by women in general are less well paid than similar ones dominated by men, and why it is mostly women who reduce their work hours while the kids are small and why not more men do the same.

> why it is mostly women who reduce their work hours while the kids are small and why not more men do the same. Because evolution did this decision for us. Woman stays with children, while man risk their lives, because those, which did the opposite, lose evolutionary competition.

No, it didn’t. You may choose to follow old traditions that don’t make sense any more, but that is something you choose. There are very few jobs today where physical strength make a difference, and before the industrial revolution the fathers were mostly at home and played important parts in raising the children.

Re: How to Mislead with Facts

#95

Post by commandlinefan »

medstrom wrote: post #21
kkjjkgjjgg wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the "fact checking" sites I am aware of are heavily biased. It seems very unlikely that they actually try to be unbiased in their checking. It already starts with selecting the facts they check (cherry picking).

I would ask you to please identify the ones to which you apply this criticism, for epistemic hygiene.

Not OP, but Snopes used to be very trustworthy but has since become nearly completely useless.

Re: How to Mislead with Facts

#96

Post by maximus-decimus »

donw wrote: post #2

The problem is policy. Imagine two friends, Alice and Bob. Alice thinks COVID is not a problem. Doesn't mask, hasn't had a single shot, all the rest. Bob is terrified of COVID. Masks up at home, space bubble helmet outside, all the rest. The only outcome that works is Alice and Bob agreeing that they have different risk preferences. That they each should live their lives in accordance, but that they have no right to…

What if Bob is afraid of other people firing their guns in their backyard because he doesn't want to get killed by stray bullets. It just doesn't work anymore because the risk Alice and Bob are taking depends more on what other people do than what they themselves do. After all Bob isn't gonna kill himself with a stray bullet. Bob not shooting guns but Alice shooting guns while pointing in Bob's house direction doesn't solve the problem.

Re: How to Mislead with Facts

#97

Post by denton-scratch »

Jensson wrote: post #85
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even bad teachers have to meet the standards, which are usually set by law. A preschool teacher, who often gets paid just over minimum wage, usually requires a 2 year degree (for head start-like programs). A teacher? 4 year degree, with a preference for a masters and in many places, absolutely no pay during the summer months. It isn't like any other industry hires only "good" people, though, so calling out teaching f…

But those standards doesn't mean anything if they are still bad teachers. Would you hire a software engineer with a 4 year degree who can't code? No, of course not. But would you hire a teacher with a 4 year degree who can't teach? Of course you would! You just need them to tick a box, their skill as a teacher isn't relevant, if they have a piece of paper they meet the bar and are hired.

> Of course you would!

I suspect that perhaps you are not a teacher, and have never applied for teaching work. Or maybe you live somewhere where school hiring practices are very irresponsible.

My daughter is a teacher who has just changed jobs. The process was something like this:

* Apply (CV, plus extensive covering letter)

* Prospective new head knows old head (they all know one another) so they talk

* Candidate gets an interview, and has to prepare a class

* Interview day: candidate delivers prepared class, observed by head and head-of-year

* Candidate is interviewed at length by a panel of three teachers, including head

* Decision made subject to references

* References taken up; award position

What you've described is a process that isn't even appropriate for a supermarket checkout clerk.

Re: How to Mislead with Facts

#98

Post by darawk »

kkjjkgjjgg wrote: post #18
darawk wrote: post #14

I love the idea of this article, but it doesn't address the reason things are the way they are. Facts get checked for literal accuracy because that's what's easy to actually do in a reasonably unbiased way. We stop there not because that's all we want, but because everything after that is too messy to even come close to systematizing. If they've got a well thought out framework for systematizing high quality contextu…

All the "fact checking" sites I am aware of are heavily biased. It seems very unlikely that they actually try to be unbiased in their checking. It already starts with selecting the facts they check (cherry picking).

I don't entirely disagree. I suppose I should have said "less biased". Imagine how biased "context checking" sites would be. Facts at least sort of have an appeal to an objective reality outside of politics.

Re: How to Mislead with Facts

#99

Post by denton-scratch »

Jensson wrote: post #83
coliveira wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies don't hire only good software engineers either, they hire plenty of ineffective ones. I don't see this changing their salaries.

Companies also fire a lot of bad software engineer and have technical interviews so there is pressure to perform. You never see teachers fired for being bad at teaching. They only get fired when they do something illegal like harass their students or when they refuse to go to work. If companies hired every person with a CS degree from any school to work as a software engineer and never fired anyone for bad performanc…

> They only get fired when they do something illegal

Here in the UK, people have employment rights, including the right not to be dismissed without process. That involves warning the employee twice verbally, putting in place measures to help them improve their performance, and then a final written warning. Teachers here are unionised; they can take their employer to an employment tribunal, which is a kind of court, for the offence of Unfair Dismissal. It takes time and money to fire someone for underperformance.

Consequently recruitment is done rather carefully - more carefully than in many software companies, judging by the calibre of some of the colleagues I've worked with.

FTR I used to be a school governor in a state-run primary school.

Re: How to Mislead with Facts

#100

Post by stirfish »

mindslight wrote: post #90
donw wrote: post #2

The problem is policy. Imagine two friends, Alice and Bob. Alice thinks COVID is not a problem. Doesn't mask, hasn't had a single shot, all the rest. Bob is terrified of COVID. Masks up at home, space bubble helmet outside, all the rest. The only outcome that works is Alice and Bob agreeing that they have different risk preferences. That they each should live their lives in accordance, but that they have no right to…

Thank you for your example of how to mislead with non-factual strawmen. This example might be connected to reality if: 1. There actually was a law requiring individuals "wear masks all the time". 2. There actually was a law requiring individuals to get an "endless stream of boosters". 3. Alice respected the boundaries of private businesses that made wearing respiratory protection or vaccination a requirement of assoc…

>Alice respected personal preferences of people wearing respiratory protection,

I've found that a lot of people think of the masks like a gas mask - supposed to keep everything bad out. They are more like the breath guard at the salad bar - keeping you from exhaling droplets six feet in front of you.

Bob's mask protects Alice more than it protects Bob.

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