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The Righteousness Fix

orionmagazine.org

91–100 of 201 posts

Re: The Righteousness Fix

#91

I wonder what the author's thoughts are on "The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion" by Jonathan Haidt. It mentions many clear refutes backed up by history to the idea of how bad it is for humans to be "addicted to righteousness". For example, individuals have not and do not live by themselves in a vacuum as only selfish. We are also very group-ish, and it is the righteousness or norm…

The big assumption here is that increasing birthrates (above replacement level) is somehow the ideal outcome of a society.

What if the ideal outcome is that humans populations shrink to 1/100th their current size and most "work" gets done by machines? Wouldn't that be vastly more efficient?

Re: The Righteousness Fix

#92

Quoted post unavailable.

> The world didn't used to be like that. I credit Christianity with the invention of proselytizing; religions before it (including Judaism, its immediate parent) were content to stay with a given tribe and not try to spread. It goes hand in hand with wars for religious conversion, which also weren't a thing before Christ. Today the same thing plays out with politics (I'm not just fashionably pointing at wokeness here, the wars for "democracy" have very much the same roots). The moment memes switched over from religion to politics as primary content seems to have been the French Revolution, I can't think of a time before that when people killed each other over political ideals.

Yeah, Christianity does seem to be the first religion that asserts it has universal good news that transcends national boundary, religious affiliation, race, etc. It is not the first religion to make universal claims, of course—Judaism asserts that Yahweh, for example, is the only true God—but it does appear to be the first religion that is specifically anti-tribe. In this sense, Christianity is incredibly inclusive. At the same time, Christianity appears as an incredibly exclusive religion, too: monotheism is nothing if not exclusive.

One might argue that the reason for its emphasis on proselytizing is two-fold: one, because adherents really did believe it was good news and naturally would spread it, and two, because it was a powerless religion. Once clearly distinguished from Judaism, it enjoyed none of the famous Roman tolerance for the other monotheistic religion and was sporadically persecuted until the time of Constantine.

The question of religion and war is an interesting one. Politics and religion were inseparable prior to Christianity, and it is hard to imagine a world in which they are separable without Christianity. The idea that you can separate Caesar from God stems from a famous interaction with...Jesus.[1] (Caesar is literal in the text, of course, but a metonym in later interpretation.) Of course it took a very long time for political theory to develop to the extent you could imagine a country in which church and state were separate. On the other hand, it's also hard to imagine a world in which you could plausibly go to war to convert someone to your religion without such inclusive claims as Christianity makes: war likely would have retained its religious underpinnings, of course, but wouldn't be characterized with evangelistic fervor.

Can you have one without the other? I'm not entirely sure. That is to say, I'm not sure we could have a society in which we could meaningfully separate church and state without simultaneously running the risk that we'd have religious war.

> For example, science doesn't try to make you into a spreader; it's content to have you do science.

Do you see a meaningful difference between "doing science" and "spreading science"? Do you have opinions about the phrase "believe the science"?

[1] See, e.g., https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+22%3A17...

It's germane to the conversation that the general tenor of the time, at least as recorded in the New Testament (see, i.a., https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%201:6&vers...) was that God's Messiah would be a military ruler and re-establish Jewish dominance.

Re: The Righteousness Fix

#93

> AS A SOBER ADDICT... I wish we would drop this terminology and self-consciousness. While I understand the term is intended as a self-reminder that it's easy to slip back into addictive patterns of behavior, the perpetual self-description of "addict" surely cannot be healthy for the person or society. The addict-for-life mentality is similar to the seed of cancel culture. Once you do $BAD_THING, you're a ${BAD_THING…

This is a common outsider's view of the sober-for-life perspective I think. It's not about sin or penance or precluding forgiveness. It's just an individual's personal acknowledgement that the same pains, proclivities and weaknesses that led them into addiction are still present in them.

It may not even be true necessarily, but it's still a useful view for a lot of people with addiction in their past. It's just lower risk to assume you're permanently vulnerable and so never use the drug again.

Re: The Righteousness Fix

#94
There seems to be a few speculative discussions around what the author identifies as a toxic addiction to righteousness and the spread of Christianity. When considering that this phenomenon touches the whole of humanity I can't help but wonder if Christianity has been an enabler, or has in fact acted as a massive check and moderating force against some of these darker impulses that are embedded deep inside of each of us.

Having read and enjoyed the article, it seems to me that the topic is very closely related to what a practicing Christian would call the sin of pride. There are some nuances to the definition and it's worth a refresher on the details of the teaching. A good primer can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PvcynQD-ag

Also, Jesus himself has some quite direct words on this topic: https://www.bible.com/bible/compare/LUK.18.10-14

Re: The Righteousness Fix

#95

Competition is great, differences of opinion are great. Differences of values are great! All of this keeps the marketplace of ideas healthy! The problems comes in when people start to develop a righteousness about their ideas and demonize the 'other' and try to force their ideas upon the 'other' because they believe they know better. That's why I think states rights in America are so great, because they allow places…

> When the federal government begins to force values upon the country en masse problems begin.

What is your opinion about the US Civil War? I'm curious about this because it is in part an abrogation of states' rights over a question of utmost moral importance. Are there some values that are so valuable that we should make them universal by any means necessary, including a war?

Re: The Righteousness Fix

#96
post #62
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that this is fundamentally untrue. Middle between truth and lie is a lie. When you are trying to find truth purely by searching middle of what people say, you are enabling bad actors and punishing honest people.

Nobody is talking about the ‘middle’, or even lies. Most people are at least partly wrong or mistaken about most things, but there are usually some things they are right about. There is value to be gained in finding out what another person is right about, even if they are wrong overall or you disagree with them.

Yeah it's the "partially" part that's important.

You could be right that:

Blood keeps you alive, working hard is important, community makes you happier overall.

While being wrong that:

If you're sick it's because your blood is poisoned, you should work as hard as possible no matter what, you should always put community first.

This is an imperfect set of examples. A better set would look like a graph of interconnected beliefs that are hard to disentangle, each node being a statement that is true under certain circumstances but not others.

The idea that there is an absolute truth with no shades in between truth and falsity... that:

1) ignores the graph-theoretical nature of truth

2) is a form of psychological "splitting" (which is described in the article)

3) is basically a fundamentalism

When we decide to label someone's statements as wrong and act against them, we ought [;-)] to be aware of this and take ownership of that stance, not attribute our epistemic decision to absolutes.

Re: The Righteousness Fix

#97

>But in the case of righteousness, such a belief is almost always mistaken. Most of us, whether we be timid or bold, liberal, conservative, or (especially) some version of radical, are prone to imbibing heady infusions of the stuff. Viewing ourselves as “good,” in fact we become grievously toxic, literally intoxicated. In this poisonous state of mind we are able to write off others — often literally billions of other…

"For the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God." Even if you're an atheist, that principle holds true. Be careful of anger as a response to the evil of others. (I say, having had that exact response just this morning...)

Re: The Righteousness Fix

#98

I wonder what the author's thoughts are on "The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion" by Jonathan Haidt. It mentions many clear refutes backed up by history to the idea of how bad it is for humans to be "addicted to righteousness". For example, individuals have not and do not live by themselves in a vacuum as only selfish. We are also very group-ish, and it is the righteousness or norm…

The big assumption here is that increasing birthrates (above replacement level) is somehow the ideal outcome of a society. What if the ideal outcome is that humans populations shrink to 1/100th their current size and most "work" gets done by machines? Wouldn't that be vastly more efficient?

The 2 high level problems with this line of thought: Who decides what we optimize for ("vastly more efficient") and Is this something that "should" have a single target across a society or across the world, or is this something that individuals or groups should decide for themselves. This line of thought can very easily shift into "worlds super elite aim to commit genocide in order to save the planet".

I do personally wonder (in a sci-fi dystopian novel sense) if the worst case climate change scenario would just end up with 99% of humans dying and the 1% that survive in isolated locations becoming a more sustainable civilization until technology catches back up and allows humans to re-populate the world to today's levels (or just leave to mars).

Re: The Righteousness Fix

#99

The tendency to link the 'addiction' tag to every undesirable human behavior is a common trend, but it's worth remembering what actual physical addiction to a substance is: a biochemical response to the introduction of a foreign substance into the body, that results in withdrawal symptoms when said foreign substance is removed. If there are no withdrawal symptoms, there is really no addiction involved. What the autho…

I’ve been addicted to video games without being physically dependent on them. I’ve been physically dependent on amphetamines without being addicted to them.

The relevant distinction isn’t what happens in your brain (which is not a useful diagnostic criterion), but whether you pursue the behavior to a harmful extent.

Re: The Righteousness Fix

#100
Well the Catholic church have been teaching that pride is the most deadly (and original) of sins for many years so no news there really.

The hard part is always the conclusion: "as we seek, in fellowship with others, to abandon our control-based mentality"

This assumes it is ever possible for me to accept that "truth" is probably somewhere in between me and others (or God if you would prefer something more absolute). Unfortunately we know from history that peace is impossible because the world is full of people with completely different motivations and ideals. Some of these have a middle ground but many don't.

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