Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How to design a house to last 1000 years

constructionphysics.substack.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 402 posts

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#91

Post by jacquesm »

arethuza wrote: post #84
jacquesm wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Add some mortar and before you know it you'll just be building a house in the traditional way.

I actually went on a course a couple of years ago to be trained in how to prepare and use traditional lime mortars - the course had us building a wall that was going to be knocked down and the stones re-used for the next class: https://www.scotlime.org/ NB I did this because our house is an old Scottish farm building that was converted to a house ~12 years ago - I wanted to be able to do proper wall repairs and build…

Neat! I just added a very small section to an existing brick wall and I'm super frustrated with the result because the original wall had it's bricks in the weirdest lines and I had the choice of following them or trying to improve it. I tried the latter and ended up with something that was less bad than it could have been but it still isn't perfectly level at the top so I'll have to do some improvisation to make the connection to the ceiling.

If you see experienced bricklayers at work, the speed with which they go and the perfection of the result then that's always a good reminder that plenty of the 'trades' that IT people tend to look down on are actually highly skilled professions that can take the better part of a lifetime to master.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#92

Post by yosito »

rsync wrote: post #87
ortusdux wrote: post #53

Stainless steel rebar is an often overlooked option. In theory, solid SS rebar should outlast the concrete, but it is a difficult thing to accurately study. In favorable conditions, regular rebar reinforced concrete starts to need major repairs after ~40 years due to corrosion. The Progresso Pier in Mexico was build over 80 years ago with SS rebar, and reportedly has not needed any renovations. A pier built 20 years…

I came here to mention that. SS rebar is, indeed, a thing and would be an interesting combination with long lasting (fly ash) concrete, etc.

How long lasting is fly ash concrete?

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#93

Post by jethro_tell »

bigyellow wrote: post #19

Having built my own house, I can definitely say this article is for intellectual stimulation only, and won't result in the construction of an actual home. Not only will you never find contractors and subs that give a shit about this level of detail, but you will struggle explaining these things to permit approvers, county bureaucrats and other people who want to make your life hell because you know more than they do,…

I would absolutely disagree.

My guess is that you have less money than you think you do. I've worked on buildings that were coming in around $2500/sq foot and if the owner didn't like a knot in the board we'd pull it and try again.

My other guess is you don't know as much as you think you do and your probably not the building savant you think you are.

If you hire an engineer, county bureaucracy doesn't care. If they have to put their stamp on it, and they don't understand it, they care, because they are liable. If you know so much more then them, why didn't you put your stamp on it?

I've also built a lot of really odd structures and you do spend a lot of time making sure that everyone agrees that you are doing it in a safe and sane way. Not entirely unlike building consensus in a enterprise setting.

There are people that are pros at doing these things. And they know how to get things done. And I've worked with them to build all sorts of crazy stuff.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#94

Post by mytailorisrich »

dahfizz wrote: post #15

Constructing a building that would last 1000 years is not particularly hard with modern engineering and materials. The hard part is, first and foremost, getting someone to pay for it. I'm not going to live 1000 years. My great grandkids likely won't even live to see the year 3022. Why would I spend orders of magnitude more for a house if a structure meant to last ~100 years serves my needs perfectly? My friend just n…

I don't think anything 'modern' is needed.

There are Roman building still standing and many of those which no longer are are so because they were abandoned and/or 'recycled'. Buildings like for instance Notre Dame de Paris are 800+ years old.

A thick stone structure seems to do the job fine.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#95

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

criddell wrote: post #3

If I were to design a house with the idea that it should serve future generations, I'd design it to be reconfigured, recycled, or torn down easily. After reading some of Stewart Brand's writing, I've learned to love ugly buildings.

The author basically agrees with you, lots of good commentary in the Conclusion section of the article:

> Designing a building for an extremely long lifespan is in some sense a bet on a certain kind of future - one where tomorrow’s physical infrastructure needs aren’t all that different from todays. And because physical infrastructure is hard to change once it’s in place, it’s also an attempt to bring that kind of future into existence. But if you think agglomeration effects should push cities to get larger and denser, or if you think we’re likely to see some cities shrinking as the nature of the economy changes, or if you think building technology is likely to change significantly, an extremely durable, an extremely long-lived house is perhaps less desirable.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#96

Post by jacquesm »

masklinn wrote: post #83
jacquesm wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That, and using both steel and stone in the same structure brings its own class of problems due to the different expansion coefficients which needs to be dealt with in a very ingenious way if that is supposed to last for a millenium (or more).

Seems to me like, given the expense and duration goals, you'd be much better off forgoing steel entirely and creating a stone gravity-bound structure, and making the places where you can't go with stone easy to repair or replace, something for which I'm not sure structural steel is ideal. > Our other option is slate. Slate roofs have extremely long lifespans and are extremely attractive. But, like copper, they’re mor…

Yes, another way to spell Slate roof = work. The reason is simple: Slate, layers of fossilized leaves, has a rough surface and frost and the weather in general will work on it and split the layers apart, seeds will find enough purchase to germinate (the handy supply of water certainly helps) and lichen and moss just love to grow on slate.

This whole article to me reads: "I'm planning on an overpriced construction for my house and need a plausible excuse'. It's a status thing and a discussion piece, not a serious project. If you want to build for a millenium: copy the Romans. Done. And even then you're going to have to re-do all the trimmings every so many years because they'll all give out with use. Even staircases made out of solid stone will wear over such time spans.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#97

Post by franch »

jethro_tell wrote: post #77
chrisseaton wrote: post #56

Look around you at the houses which are still standing after 1000 years. Copy their design.

1. Be rich 2. Don't not be rich 3. Make sure your kids marry in a way that keeps the money in the family 4. Build a castle/house of stone. Congratulations, you own a castle

Not all stone houses are castles or luxury residences. My family's house (northern Italy in the Alps) is at least 600 years old (there is a painting on the outside that has been dated to around 1420) but it is a working-class home. The interior has been repurposed many times over the centuries, but it is still there and inhabited.

edit: spelling

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#98

Post by rsync »

This is a very odd design document and it makes me think this author has thought a lot about materials and buildings but not actually built anything.

The steel moment frame, to someone with shallow knowledge, sounds so strong and resilient. But in fact, a rigid steel structure is more vulnerable to seismic (and even wind) loads than wooden framing which can flex and move and dampen those loads naturally.

The stainless spec for the frame is just pure silliness. Looking at my notes now, for steel beams buried in the ground:

  200 microns of rust per year in very aggressive soils, but it rusts on both sides, so make that 400 microns.
... which means that it takes ~25 years to rust through naked 3/8 steel buried in the most aggressive soils.

... which also means that unburied steel, protected from elements, up in the air, is going to last more than 1000 years.

Oh, and also, the SS is more brittle so you've made your seismic issues even worse.

...

If I had an unlimited budget and was aiming for >1000 years I would pour the piles to bedrock with stainless rebar inside fly-ash concrete and top those pilings with plate connectors into which you could socket large wooden columns (perhaps 8x8) and build the structure with large wooden members connected with steel connectors and column caps, etc.

I would only use steel members if the span called for wood that was too big (like a 24' span needing a 8x14 or whatever).

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#99

Post by beaconstudios »

bigyellow wrote: post #21
Gravityloss wrote: post #17

Why have the chimney outside? It's very inefficient... https://www.quora.com/Why-do-American-houses-often-have-the-...

Not to mention wood fireplaces in the home and the noxious byproducts they produce is likely to shorten your lifespan considerably.

the smoke goes up the chimney.

Re: How to design a house to last 1000 years

#100

Post by KaiserPro »

I hate to be a stuck in the mud, but a concrete pad, with unreinforced piles is not going to last a 1000 years. those piles are going to be impossible to repair without breaking the slab, or undermining, which means it's expensive to maintain. (yes Roman concrete has lasted 1k years, but thats a different type to the cement they use now.)

The other thing that they've not managed to control is moisture. You can't mix and match steel with lime mortar (I mean you can, but its not wise) You can just put a moisture barrier in there, but you need a way to maintain that (its not like a damp proof course, its far more extensive).

Personally if you want to make a house last 1k years, just make a clay lump house. It'll be far cheaper to build, look more realistic and much more well understood how to repair it.

Post reply on HN