Amazon’s Alexa assistant told a child to do a potentially lethal challenge • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon’s Alexa assistant told a child to do a potentially lethal challenge

#91

Post by coldcode » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 6:37 PM UTC

Jeff_Brown wrote: post #21

coldcode wrote: post #13

When I was around 5-6 I wanted to know what would happen if I put a hairpin into a light socket. It seemed a reasonable experiment beforehand; after I picked myself up after flying across the room I learned a valuable lesson. Around the same time I tested whether Santa existed by putting out food; when no one ate it I assumed Santa was fake. Children are not very experienced at knowledge and thinking and often do thi…

You literally flew across the room? I've been shocked a fair number of times -- the worst was when as an 11 year old I felt around in a bare light socket with my finger in Kenya, where they use 240 V -- and don't recall ever feeling pushed in any particular direction. Indeed, that Kenya experience was terrifying precisely because I was paralyzed. I made an involuntary "aaauugh" sound and shook until the lamp fell ove…

I think it scared the hell out of me when it made a noise and smoked more than the jolt itself.

Re: Amazon’s Alexa assistant told a child to do a potentially lethal challenge

#92

Post by jdmichal » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

annoyingnoob wrote: post #83

jdmichal wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't teach children to use Alexa. If Alexa is there they just talk to it. I'll second this. My 5 year old talks to my father's Google device when we're visiting. We never taught him to -- he just learned from grandpa.

Yes, kids learn a lot by observing others. Your 5 year did not talk to a Google device before he saw someone else do it. Kids learn just from watching you, its still teaching and learning. Saying OK Google to electronic devices is not innate in humans.

I guess "teaching" can be done passively, though I feel like the context of my comment made it clear that I meant "teach" as a purposeful action. Maybe you can read it as, "we never instructed him to", if being pedantic about the word "teach" is preventing this conversation from moving forward.

Re: Amazon’s Alexa assistant told a child to do a potentially lethal challenge

#93

Post by cpuguy83 » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 6:54 PM UTC

micromacrofoot wrote: post #87

cpuguy83 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In both situations I don't think this is "blindly following ai". If you are unfamiliar with an area, hence why you are using gps, then it is reasonable that someone does not know a street is a one way and it may not be immediately evident. Add time of day or inclimate weather to the situation and things can get bad quickly.

I suppose, though I was thinking of the “dark storm” example… which sounds like almost literally following gps blind. That’s the situation drivers ed teaches you to pull over and wait. Even one way… maybe you can make the case that the city isn’t labeling roads well, but when in doubt there are other cues like parked cars and the direction other road signs face. These are problems that also predate gps. If a passenge…

Yes you are right that is literally following gps blindly, and probably people should pull over.

Re: Amazon’s Alexa assistant told a child to do a potentially lethal challenge

#94

Post by maximus-decimus » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 7:02 PM UTC

dudleypippin wrote: post #60

coldcode wrote: post #13

When I was around 5-6 I wanted to know what would happen if I put a hairpin into a light socket. It seemed a reasonable experiment beforehand; after I picked myself up after flying across the room I learned a valuable lesson. Around the same time I tested whether Santa existed by putting out food; when no one ate it I assumed Santa was fake. Children are not very experienced at knowledge and thinking and often do thi…

My daughter checked the existence of the tooth fairy by not telling us when she lost a tooth and putting it under her pillow. The pride on her face when she informed of of the results of her experiment the next morning made my heart sing.

Was your answer "I expect a full scientitic report by tomorrow."?

Hypothesis : Parents are fat liars"

Methodology : Put teeth under pillow without telling parents.

Result : Where's my money?

Analysis : The results show that the tooth fairy is fake and my parents are liars."

Conclusion : The current results tend to show that parents are liars, but we need more experiments to know the extent. To expend on the results, I should also be as evil as possible for the incoming year and verify if Santa Claus indeed does give me coal.

Re: Amazon’s Alexa assistant told a child to do a potentially lethal challenge

#95

Post by toss1 » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 7:13 PM UTC

dwringer wrote: post #22

lnxg33k1 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You fail to see how this is responsibility of Alexa? Are you guys just corporate worshippers? Like are we past the point where we expect corporations to invest the time to make their products safe? I fail to see your logic and how this is a parenting issue, like do you expect parents to keep their kids in chains in glass domes? Amazon, Google, Facebook and all crap like that are selling products and apparently they a…

The article mentions the mother being there at the time to turn it into a lesson about not trusting strangers or the internet. The child was 10 years old for the incident - at that age most children have been in public school for a few years and quite possibly heard much more horrible "advice" from classmates, and have likely been unsupervised many times around electrical sockets. Hopefully their parents or guardians…

Of course we all want children to be as equipped as possible "to listen critically to strangers, and ... to differentiate good ideas from dangerous ones"

THAT IN NO WAY LETS MANUFACTURERS AND SELLERS OF PRODUCTS OFF THE HOOK !!

If you want to make money selling or providing products to consumers, and especially to children, IT IS YOUR JOB #1 TO MAKE THEM INHERENTLY SAFE.

If you cannot make it inherently safe, it is not ready to sell. Period

Stop attempting to insert some defenses you think children should have against bad advice and dangerous products -- it is utterly irrelevant.

The fact that the mom was there and turned it into a learning event was PURE DUMB LUCK. They got lucky this time. They'd better damn well fix it solidly or pull the product.

The fact that this is even a question in a modern society is mind-boggling.

Re: Amazon’s Alexa assistant told a child to do a potentially lethal challenge

#96

Post by tlear » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

Jeff_Brown wrote: post #21

coldcode wrote: post #13

When I was around 5-6 I wanted to know what would happen if I put a hairpin into a light socket. It seemed a reasonable experiment beforehand; after I picked myself up after flying across the room I learned a valuable lesson. Around the same time I tested whether Santa existed by putting out food; when no one ate it I assumed Santa was fake. Children are not very experienced at knowledge and thinking and often do thi…

You literally flew across the room? I've been shocked a fair number of times -- the worst was when as an 11 year old I felt around in a bare light socket with my finger in Kenya, where they use 240 V -- and don't recall ever feeling pushed in any particular direction. Indeed, that Kenya experience was terrifying precisely because I was paralyzed. I made an involuntary "aaauugh" sound and shook until the lamp fell ove…

Can happen. When I was about 4 I managed to get my finger on the contacts of the plug as I inserted it. This was an old USSR plug... I next remember being in the middle of the room. I thought one of my parents sneaked up on me an grabbed me.. but there was no-one around. I had no idea what happened and kinda just ignored it. I then got electrocuted in shop class in my teens and had the AHA moment as I understood what happened to me as a kid.

Re: Amazon’s Alexa assistant told a child to do a potentially lethal challenge

#97

Post by dwringer » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 7:23 PM UTC

toss1 wrote: post #95

dwringer wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article mentions the mother being there at the time to turn it into a lesson about not trusting strangers or the internet. The child was 10 years old for the incident - at that age most children have been in public school for a few years and quite possibly heard much more horrible "advice" from classmates, and have likely been unsupervised many times around electrical sockets. Hopefully their parents or guardians…

Of course we all want children to be as equipped as possible "to listen critically to strangers, and ... to differentiate good ideas from dangerous ones" THAT IN NO WAY LETS MANUFACTURERS AND SELLERS OF PRODUCTS OFF THE HOOK !! If you want to make money selling or providing products to consumers, and especially to children, IT IS YOUR JOB #1 TO MAKE THEM INHERENTLY SAFE. If you cannot make it inherently safe, it is n…

Perhaps I should have made clear that I agree Amazon has some responsibility here in what kinds of things go onto their platform, but to me it seems like a problem with no obvious solution. Particularly as we move toward more dynamic digital assistants that scrape content directly from the internet, I think we will run into more situations like this. To me it just seems like the safest course would be to treat Alexa and other digital assistants more like a courier than a family friend. Parents let deliveries into the house all the time, but shouldn't leave children alone with the delivery person. I'd expect a courier service to fire their couriers (and take appropriate legal action) if they demonstrated problematic behavior toward children on their route, just as I expect Amazon to take steps to prevent what happened here with Alexa, but I worry that the inherent potential for danger is ever present.

Re: Amazon’s Alexa assistant told a child to do a potentially lethal challenge

#98

Post by a-priori » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 7:26 PM UTC

Jeff_Brown wrote: post #21

coldcode wrote: post #13

When I was around 5-6 I wanted to know what would happen if I put a hairpin into a light socket. It seemed a reasonable experiment beforehand; after I picked myself up after flying across the room I learned a valuable lesson. Around the same time I tested whether Santa existed by putting out food; when no one ate it I assumed Santa was fake. Children are not very experienced at knowledge and thinking and often do thi…

You literally flew across the room? I've been shocked a fair number of times -- the worst was when as an 11 year old I felt around in a bare light socket with my finger in Kenya, where they use 240 V -- and don't recall ever feeling pushed in any particular direction. Indeed, that Kenya experience was terrifying precisely because I was paralyzed. I made an involuntary "aaauugh" sound and shook until the lamp fell ove…

My wild guess is that the “fly across the room” comes from a spasm in the leg muscles, so it’s more that you involuntarily jump across the room.

Re: Amazon’s Alexa assistant told a child to do a potentially lethal challenge

#99

Post by dwringer » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 7:38 PM UTC

lnxg33k1 wrote: post #39

dwringer wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article mentions the mother being there at the time to turn it into a lesson about not trusting strangers or the internet. The child was 10 years old for the incident - at that age most children have been in public school for a few years and quite possibly heard much more horrible "advice" from classmates, and have likely been unsupervised many times around electrical sockets. Hopefully their parents or guardians…

I think trusting a device like a family friend has been an error, thinking to compare a school friend giving a bad advice to a kid to a world of corporation surrounding us with unmoderated content to fill their pockets is just laughable if it wasn't just so sad, a parent has to monitor and teach a kid how to survive, these companies need to be responsible for the content published on their platform as they have the a…

> I think trusting a device like a family friend has been an error,

I think I was too verbose and meandering to convey it, but I agree with you on this 100%

Re: Amazon’s Alexa assistant told a child to do a potentially lethal challenge

#100

Post by zaxbeast » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 7:40 PM UTC

When I was a kid, I did something a lot safer... I wrapped a metal paper clip around a wooden pencil with the ends pointing the same way and then stuck it in the outlet... it probably tripped the breaker but I never got shocked (while doing that). Another thing we liked to do was mix milk and pool chlorine in a plastic bottle... it makes a nice pop (can get you hurt if you don't get away fast enough though, after you put the cap back on).