Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#91

Post by icu » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

horsawlarway wrote: post #83

fsflover wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He became a believer before becoming a part of it.

> I then decided to venture into crypto with money I could completely lose and not worry about, and it really helped my understanding further. Did he? Did he really? As someone who has genuinely used bitcoin for one of the (VERY few) use cases where it's actually useful - buying drugs on a dark market. I don't buy it. You can find a lot more detail on my position here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29331167 I'…

OP here. Yes, I had to send "money" to China, for a service rendered in the US, while I am physically in London. It was a totally legitimate transaction and had nothing to do with anything dark market or drug related. Thanks for the link to your discussion, I will read it, but please don't throw out criminal accusations in HN.

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#92

Post by CryptoPunk » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 4:37 PM UTC

meragrin_ wrote: post #34

CryptoPunk wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A person can hide the fact that they have a wallet. Confiscating information, that can be stored as a secret passphrase in your brain, is extremely difficult.

> Confiscating information, that can be stored as a secret passphrase in your brain, is extremely difficult. >> If they can be recreated, the person can be monitored to determine how to recreate the wallet and then be drained. Being unable to use the Bitcoin is the same as confiscating it.

Being unable to use it, when you have access to encrypted communication, not to mention other countries where it is legal?

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#93

Post by CryptoPunk » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 4:37 PM UTC

yesbut wrote: post #38

CryptoPunk wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A person can hide the fact that they have a wallet. Confiscating information, that can be stored as a secret passphrase in your brain, is extremely difficult.

the CIA figured out how to extract passphrases from people's brains decades ago.

The government is going to start torturing thousands upon thousands of citizens to find out if they have secret passphrases?

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#94

Post by CryptoPunk » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 4:40 PM UTC

yesbut wrote: post #32

anovikov wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if crypto is meant to be used as a method of investment, then sorry, nothing which does not generate rent can be a viable method of investment (can sometimes be a method of preserving wealth e.g. gold but even that barely). In this sense, i agree with you. But crypto is also very useful for undermining governments - making them unnecessary. Which is a beneficial thing for all humankind. Whenever government real…

All institutions should constantly be forced to justify their necessity. One thing to keep in mind about having different currencies out in the wild and usable within the same system, we've already had something like this. Before nation states had central banks you could find regional currencies all over the place. It was a mess. One of the main issues is that most of them weren't guaranteed in any way, similar to wh…

>>Before nation states had central banks you could find regional currencies all over the place. It was a mess. One of the main issues is that most of them weren't guaranteed in any way, similar to what we see with crypto today.

It wasn't a mess: https://www.alt-m.org/2021/07/06/the-fable-of-the-cats/

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#95

Post by 400thecat » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

lai-yin wrote: post #7

foxes wrote: post #3

Fresh in-pouring of victims to sustain the whole thing, while some bigger players benefit. Im sorry, I don't want to argue anymore with crypto advocates. There is no more rational discussion to possibly be had about any of the current contenders in this space. The whole thing needs to be pulled apart. Just because some people earn money from it, doesn't make it moral, a good idea , useful, or bettering human society.…

Oil and natural gas have lifted billions of people out of generational poverty. It wouldn't be possible for you to type that comment on your computer or laptop and post it to Hacker News without their existence. When I got into Bitcoin I wasn't a "victim" and I'm still not one. Maybe you're the victim of your own preconceived notions.

Agree completely with the first paragraph.

As for the second part, eventually when bitcoin crashes, there will be lots of victims.

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#96

Post by 400thecat » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

fsflover wrote: post #12

foxes wrote: post #3

Fresh in-pouring of victims to sustain the whole thing, while some bigger players benefit. Im sorry, I don't want to argue anymore with crypto advocates. There is no more rational discussion to possibly be had about any of the current contenders in this space. The whole thing needs to be pulled apart. Just because some people earn money from it, doesn't make it moral, a good idea , useful, or bettering human society.…

Crypto helps people in semi-totalitarian regimes to not depend on inflation and be independent on the governments with transactions.

nobody uses bitcoin for transaction anymore

It has become pure speculation vehicle

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#97

Post by okareaman » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 4:58 PM UTC

icu wrote: post #88

okareaman wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you become a believer without evidence (faith) or do you wish to share what changed your mind? Like physicist Richard Feynman said, if you can't explain it simply, then you don't understand it.

I'll try to be brief because there are lots of reasons why I changed my mind: 1) I actually think I understand it now (I could still be wrong) because I studied it. 2) I had a very annoying use case sending money to a company in China and after having a terrible time with AliPay and getting nowhere, when I tried using crypto (not BTC) it was a breeze. 3) The way our financial system is setup has bothered me since 200…

Thanks. I hear international money transfer a lot and I can understand that. It's not something I ever do, but I'm glad Bitcoin works for those who do.

> BTC is a likely contender for an intergenerational store of value

I'm far more dubious about this

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#98

Post by horsawlarway » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 5:02 PM UTC

icu wrote: post #91

horsawlarway wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I then decided to venture into crypto with money I could completely lose and not worry about, and it really helped my understanding further. Did he? Did he really? As someone who has genuinely used bitcoin for one of the (VERY few) use cases where it's actually useful - buying drugs on a dark market. I don't buy it. You can find a lot more detail on my position here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29331167 I'…

OP here. Yes, I had to send "money" to China, for a service rendered in the US, while I am physically in London. It was a totally legitimate transaction and had nothing to do with anything dark market or drug related. Thanks for the link to your discussion, I will read it, but please don't throw out criminal accusations in HN.

> please don't throw out criminal accusations in HN.

Pointing out that you have a very clear conflict of interest here, and that you should be taken with many grains of salt, is not a criminal accusation.

If you think I'm claiming you use dark markets, please go read my comment again. I'm very clearly not... ( and I hope you had better reading comprehension on the crypto materials! :P )

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#99

Post by hiq » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

icu wrote: post #85

hiq wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be more helpful if you could say what changed your mind. From your comment I can't say whether you changed your mind because you learned something in your studies, or because BTC went from <1$ to 10k$+.

I first "looked" at BTC @ I then looked again at ~$100 and felt that it was too involved with crime for me to be associated in any way with it (I work in Regulated Financial markets and I didn't want to take any career chance I could get accused of money laundering). At ~$1,000 I actually played with some code in Python to mine BTC but figured I'd need an ASIC rig and didn't bother. 7 December 2020 one of the smartes…

Sorry, I must be tired. Did I misunderstand your answer, or are you saying that you did change your mind about BTC just because it increased in value? If that's not the case, why did you change your mind about it?

Edit: sorry I just saw another comment of yours down below, will read that.

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#100

Post by hiq » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

jonathan-adly wrote: post #79

hiq wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be more helpful if you could say what changed your mind. From your comment I can't say whether you changed your mind because you learned something in your studies, or because BTC went from <1$ to 10k$+.

I am not the OP, but like him, I though Bitcoin was a scam until early this year. What changed my mind when a centralized entity like Robinhood took away the buy button of an equity in most capital-friendly country on Earth. I wasn't even involved, so I wasn't mad. But rationally, if someone can wake up one day and decide you can't buy an equity with little consequences, then it is entirely possible for a bank to tak…

I think this comment is on point and related to your points: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29646492

I'm not familiar with Robinhood, but I think it's mostly about buying stocks. Blockchains won't help you do this, at least not in a decentralized manner. You'll be stuck buying tokens with no real connection to e.g. the US economy, until it's been approved legally.

> Follow the logic of what's possible with the centralization of money, and quickly you would realize that you really own nothing

Inflation is a problem, and has had dramatic impact historically, but there's no indication that bitcoin is a solution to this. Just look at the USD/BTC rate over the last year.