Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

DeepMind’s new AI with a memory outperforms algorithms 25 times its size

singularityhub.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 141 posts

Re: DeepMind’s new AI with a memory outperforms algorithms 25 times its size

#91

Post by visarga »

saltyfamiliar wrote: post #19
neom wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got into a very long debate with an openai person 4/5 years ago about this + adversarial learning + access to a quantum computer (think just straight up world class abacus) was close to the primitives required for more generalized AI. They didn't agree with me, but that's ok! :)

Does anyone know if we understand enough about natural, generally intelligent brains to dismiss the idea that they are using quantum phenomenon for computation? Is it unlikely for any reason?

Not necessary. Quantum AI is basically explaining something mysterious by something else mysterious, even when there is no indication they are related.

Re: DeepMind’s new AI with a memory outperforms algorithms 25 times its size

#92

Post by visarga »

saltyfamiliar wrote: post #46
tialaramex wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. It's unavoidably "quantum" in the sense that, as a physical machine in our universe it's subject to the rules, including quantum physics. However there is no apparent mechanism by which "thinking" could harness any interesting properties of quantum physics, it's just not happening at the right scale, like the way kids sand walls on the beach don't alter the world's tides.

That proportions in that analogy seem way off. Every single neuron of the human brain could be utilizing quantum mechanical effects at the same time. Not very much at all like a kid's sand castle against the world's tides. I don't think anyone really understand "thinking" and quantum mechanics well enough for the mechanisms to be apparent. I mean, squirrels convert forest detritus into general intelligence. I don't u…

> I don't understand the strong certainty against the idea that there's some physics based piece of the puzzle that we're missing.

There is a missing piece of the puzzle all right, it's the huge role the environment and body play in developing intelligence. Everyone's focusing on quantum effects or just the brain forgetting that all they learn comes from the experience of the environment on the body.

The forces that shape and restrict life are the same that guide our learning process and evolution. We're looking too close to the brain and missing the big picture. Embodiment is the thing we're glossing over.

Quantum intelligence or consciousness seems like a detour, a blind walk into mysticism unless someone can prove there are things in neurology and AI that only make sense from a quantum perspective.

Re: DeepMind’s new AI with a memory outperforms algorithms 25 times its size

#93

Post by visarga »

frabcus wrote: post #56
saltyfamiliar wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone know if we understand enough about natural, generally intelligent brains to dismiss the idea that they are using quantum phenomenon for computation? Is it unlikely for any reason?

Roger Penrose’s The Emperors New Mind proposed this in the 1990s. He gave circumstantial possibilities, and I don’t think we know more than that now. As an amateur, my instinct is that the mystery of the observer "causing" wave function collapse is the best clue we have either way. I wouldn’t be surprised if we are just weighted neurons, or if we do something quantum too. I doubt the something quantum will be the sam…

> Consciousness causing the wave-function to collapse isn't a very popular idea these days and there are alternative explanations, though as far as I know there isn't any evidence that it is involved or if it isn't. The wave function collapse happens regardless of whether a human or any conscious being is present, all that is needed is something does an observation. Imagine a scenario where a QM experiment is done, and the result is recorded by machines and stored as a data file. Let 100 years pass then distribute copies of the file to a million people. They will all see the same thing.

Source https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/does-consciousness-cau...

Re: DeepMind’s new AI with a memory outperforms algorithms 25 times its size

#94

Post by katmannthree »

taneq wrote: post #86
katmannthree wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe we've been able to model the processes behind neural firings for quite some time now, the issue is more mapping between that micro-scale understanding of how each individual piece in a 10^10 piece puzzle with 10^15 edges affects the macro-scale emergent properties of said puzzle. It's less a lack of understanding of the processes and more a complexity so great that it exceeds the grasp of our best modeling…

Can we barely model it yet? I thought they weren’t at the point of getting able to simulate any actual work behaviours?

We can model neural activations but the whole-cell body simulation was still unstable last I checked (admittedly a year or so ago)

Re: DeepMind’s new AI with a memory outperforms algorithms 25 times its size

#97

Post by jquery »

visarga wrote: post #92
saltyfamiliar wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That proportions in that analogy seem way off. Every single neuron of the human brain could be utilizing quantum mechanical effects at the same time. Not very much at all like a kid's sand castle against the world's tides. I don't think anyone really understand "thinking" and quantum mechanics well enough for the mechanisms to be apparent. I mean, squirrels convert forest detritus into general intelligence. I don't u…

> I don't understand the strong certainty against the idea that there's some physics based piece of the puzzle that we're missing. There is a missing piece of the puzzle all right, it's the huge role the environment and body play in developing intelligence. Everyone's focusing on quantum effects or just the brain forgetting that all they learn comes from the experience of the environment on the body. The forces that…

I think it’s a strong conjecture that quantum effects at the single neuron level in the brain are significant. Given how evolution has had billions of years to operate and “train” itself, I don’t think it would be surprising to discover quantum-mechanical processes were deeply intertwined with intelligence.

I think there is some definite upside to knowing the ultimate complexity of a single neuron.

Is it a detour? I don’t think we can say for sure either way until the question of how a single neuron works is settled.

Re: DeepMind’s new AI with a memory outperforms algorithms 25 times its size

#98

Post by taneq »

katmannthree wrote: post #94
taneq wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we barely model it yet? I thought they weren’t at the point of getting able to simulate any actual work behaviours?

We can model neural activations but the whole-cell body simulation was still unstable last I checked (admittedly a year or so ago)

Does the modeled activity track any real world measurements, though? If we're going to claim any real veracity from a simulation then we need to crosscheck it against real measurements, right?

Re: DeepMind’s new AI with a memory outperforms algorithms 25 times its size

#100

Post by mvcalder »

saltyfamiliar wrote: post #46
tialaramex wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. It's unavoidably "quantum" in the sense that, as a physical machine in our universe it's subject to the rules, including quantum physics. However there is no apparent mechanism by which "thinking" could harness any interesting properties of quantum physics, it's just not happening at the right scale, like the way kids sand walls on the beach don't alter the world's tides.

That proportions in that analogy seem way off. Every single neuron of the human brain could be utilizing quantum mechanical effects at the same time. Not very much at all like a kid's sand castle against the world's tides. I don't think anyone really understand "thinking" and quantum mechanics well enough for the mechanisms to be apparent. I mean, squirrels convert forest detritus into general intelligence. I don't u…

> squirrels convert forest detritus into general intelligence

Could you elaborate on this? Are you referring to a specific research result or waxing poetic?

Post reply on HN