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Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

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Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#91

Post by andybak »

tptacek wrote: post #75
andybak wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone can throw in a silly comparison but it doesn't really help. I'm fairy certain you're smart enough to reflect on the nuance that this topic deserves. Some bad things are legal. Some bad things aren't. It's a complex thing for society to weigh up and the linked article attempts to contribute to that discussion.

I'm not being glib. This article is premised on the idea that because there are no health benefits to tobacco (none.), it has no value whatsoever. But it clearly does have value: it is a source of pleasure for a large number of people. Pleasure has value. People shouldn't smoke, it makes perfect sense to vice-tax it to offset the externalities, and nobody should valorize the companies profiting from those externaliti…

> unlike opiates and methamphetamine

Here you're picked the extremes to make your point stronger. There's plenty of prohibited substances and behaviours that are much closer to the gray area that this article is pondering on.

I don't have a clear view on this topic myself - but there's too many people in this thread claiming that it's absurd to even have the discussion - which I think is lazy and disingenuous.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#92

Post by Zababa »

BrS96bVxXBLzf5B wrote: post #14

> Tobacco smoking has no health benefits. None. It can be argued that nicotine, one of the thousands of compounds in tobacco smoke, can have positive effects on some cognitive functions and may even confer some neuroprotection (1), but getting nicotine from tobacco products may be likened to sucking on a tail pipe to get oxygen – it’s there but it’s not going to do you any good. I'm sorry for their personal experienc…

You're mixing tobacco and nicotine. There are ways to get nicotine in you without consuming tobacco. I know at least of nicotine gums and nicotine patches.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#93

Post by tastyfreeze »

63 wrote: post #19
chernevik wrote: post #8

Because some people enjoy it, and it's a free country. Why is this even a question?

The article is specifically speaking about Canada. I suppose Canada is a free country too, though.

Somewhat less free than the US. They do have government healthcare. That means unhealthy habits are a drain on government. To cut cost it is natural to look at high cost of care conditions that could be prevented. The government has to increase taxes or make things illegal to control cost.

I see that as a problem with government healthcare. It will always result in either higher taxes or a restriction on behavior.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#94

Post by hammock »

kadoban wrote: post #12
tedajax wrote: post #4

Smoking is bad but prohibition is worse. Being subjected to the carcercal system is worse for your health than smoking.

Does this apply to other drugs as well?

I wonder this as well, particularly drugs that start with V and may contain mRNA.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#95

Post by dvlsadvoxate6 »

Veen wrote: post #89
woodruffw wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being subjected to the carceral system is indeed bad for your health, but there's a gap here: you haven't explained why banning smoking means we have to put people in prison. I would have thought to just fine them, or tax purchases out of existence. No need for shackles.

> I would have thought to just fine them What happens when they don't pay their fines? There has to be some backup plan and it's usually jail. You could keep increasing the fine for as long as they don't pay, but they you end up with loads of bankrupt people. > or tax purchases out of existence That creates a black market. In the UK, where tobacco taxes are high, it's quite easy to find small shops and individuals wh…

No post body was provided.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#96

Post by willcipriano »

jondwillis wrote: post #71
ravi-delia wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what, that's the first good plan I've seen for handling the issue.

Would love to give myself a vice ban occasionally.

In a perfect world I'd be able to set a weekly calorie limit. Charge me double the cost and send the overage to the charity of my choice for any food over the limit.

A government body limiting who can buy food isn't really a good idea, so it only works in utopia. It could work for non-essentials though.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#97

Post by tptacek »

andybak wrote: post #91
tptacek wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not being glib. This article is premised on the idea that because there are no health benefits to tobacco (none.), it has no value whatsoever. But it clearly does have value: it is a source of pleasure for a large number of people. Pleasure has value. People shouldn't smoke, it makes perfect sense to vice-tax it to offset the externalities, and nobody should valorize the companies profiting from those externaliti…

> unlike opiates and methamphetamine Here you're picked the extremes to make your point stronger. There's plenty of prohibited substances and behaviours that are much closer to the gray area that this article is pondering on. I don't have a clear view on this topic myself - but there's too many people in this thread claiming that it's absurd to even have the discussion - which I think is lazy and disingenuous.

Name a prohibited substance that (1) poses no threat of destabilizing society or the health care system, (2) has centuries of cultural context, and (3) isn't on the verge of being legalized right now, like cannabis and psilocybin.

The imminent legalization of psilocybin makes my argument for me. It was an argument isomorphic to the one this anti-smoking piece made that banned it in the first place. And as a society, we're charting a course in the opposite direction of that argument, because, it turns out, that argument was dumb.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#98

Post by grishka »

sidpatil wrote: post #90
willcipriano wrote: post #45

> However, there is no moderation in tobacco. There is no level at which tobacco smoke is safe for the consumer or the people around them or, as we are seeing, even those who are exposed in a tertiary environment. I've used tobacco products perhaps from 0 - 5 times a year from adulthood on. While not "safe", pretty low risk. I have the same relationship with caffeine and alcohol. Nothing can be all that enjoyable if…

The country of Oman has something like this. If you are not Muslim, you can apply for a permit which will allow you to purchase alcohol in restaurants and state-owned liquor shops.

UAE as well.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#99

Post by JohnHaugeland »

I have never smoked a cigarette in my life.

As a pothead, I find this line of reasoning offensive.

As a scientist, I'd like to observe that their opening claim that tobacco has no medical benefits is hard-false; it's by far the most effective known medication for schizophrenia, by example, helps with crohn's, helps with IBS, et cetera.

Alcohol is far worse for us than tobacco. So is white sugar.

This person is just plying a grudge.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#100

Post by 5e92cb50239222b »

willcipriano wrote: post #45

> However, there is no moderation in tobacco. There is no level at which tobacco smoke is safe for the consumer or the people around them or, as we are seeing, even those who are exposed in a tertiary environment. I've used tobacco products perhaps from 0 - 5 times a year from adulthood on. While not "safe", pretty low risk. I have the same relationship with caffeine and alcohol. Nothing can be all that enjoyable if…

I believe Japan has something similar to what you describe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taspo

If you want to buy cigarettes from vending machines, you have to get this card first.

Just start requiring it in regular convenience stores (or stop selling tobacco there altogether), and you're done.

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