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Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

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Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#91

Post by jvandenbroeck »

rickmb wrote: post #16
varunsrin wrote: post #9

The first problem with the article here is that some of the buttons (Move To, Copy To) did not exist previously. They are also extensions of existing functions (Move, Copy) - so concluding that half the UI is covered by buttons that were not used is an inaccurate assumption. Secondly, the actions are being moved from the context menu to the ribbon. Most new computer users find it very hard to remember additional, non…

> but it will be extremely helpful for beginners Methinks that kind of summarizes the issue: Microsoft doesn't seem to realize it's not 1995 anymore. "Beginners" are no longer a big market, and people are more comfortable with "discovering" software interfaces, as proven by the success of web apps, Apple, etcetera.

Your computer science class isn't a good representation of the market. + It's not because 90% knows how to use a browser that they know how to use explorer, right click & use CTR/ALT

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#92

Post by nickknw »

dhimes wrote: post #14
varunsrin wrote: post #9

The first problem with the article here is that some of the buttons (Move To, Copy To) did not exist previously. They are also extensions of existing functions (Move, Copy) - so concluding that half the UI is covered by buttons that were not used is an inaccurate assumption. Secondly, the actions are being moved from the context menu to the ribbon. Most new computer users find it very hard to remember additional, non…

Most new computer users find it very hard to remember additional, non intuitive actions like right clicking & context menus I didn't realize this. In fact, if I were asked to guess, I would have answered that most new users would pick up pretty quickly how to use context menus, especially if the context menus had related commands like file manipulation if in Windows Explorer (is it still called that?), or formatting…

> In fact, if I were asked to guess, I would have answered that most new users would pick up pretty quickly how to use context menus

As someone who has done a fair amount of tutoring seniors on basic computer usage, I have a large amount of anecdotal evidence to indicate this is definitely not the case for them. Depending on the person, I would sometimes try to not show them context menus or keyboard shortcuts at all and just teach them how to use the File, Edit, etc. menus.

There are people who just want to learn the correct order of incantations so that they can check their mail and do things with their photos. And that's okay! Trying to show them that that there is more than one way to do a given action often just leads to confusion as they meld them together (right click on Edit..)

I have seen a fair amount of people with a similar approach as well, but my largest body of personal experience comes from the tutoring, which is why I mentioned it.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#93

Post by martingordon »

sid0 wrote: post #71
martingordon wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying you don't need a filesystem. There are other ways to interact with data besides a file browser. On the iPad, I can use the official Photos app (or any of the other photo apps) to get my photos where they need to go, whether that's a phone, computer, website or printer. I don't read my email by going into the "My Emails" folder on my C:\ drive, I access my email through a UI specifically made for access…

And what happens if there's a file type the OS doesn't support? In my case that often happens with mkv files. How do I tell iTunes (or any other music player) to import some of the music on my USB drive? iTunes doesn't even allow you to do that with iPods...

I would say you're out of luck then. What good are those mkv files if you don't have an app to read them?

There are a lot of things I'm used to doing on a computer that I can't do on an iPad. Everyone has their examples of things that make X inferior to Y. Apple has shown that they can be successful by offering less of "business as usual" while slowly introducing new ways of doing things.

The only way to advance the state of the art is to let go of a lot of the notions of what we think a computer should be. Is rearranging toolbar buttons really going to bring delight to people around the world? How does this help the guy who is miserable at his job because he's forced to use a 10 year old PC running Windows XP? How does it help the person who lost all of their vacation photos because they downloaded a photo editing app that turned out to be a virus? How does it help a four year old that's learning to read?

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#94

Post by mirkules »

sp332 wrote: post #54
psychotik wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seriously think that average users push 'Alt'?

Haha, compared to "F10"? But really, yes, because Alt activates menus in Windows applications. e.g. "Aft-F" for the File menu.

Still to this day, Alt-F is engrained in my head. "Alt-F-S" for saving, actually. I use it all the time. On a Mac. I always get annoyed at myself when I search for the letter "S"

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#95

Post by xtracto »

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #24
rickmb wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it will be extremely helpful for beginners Methinks that kind of summarizes the issue: Microsoft doesn't seem to realize it's not 1995 anymore. "Beginners" are no longer a big market, and people are more comfortable with "discovering" software interfaces, as proven by the success of web apps, Apple, etcetera.

Most "normals" I interact with are beginners every time they use the computer . They are not comfortable discovering anything. I can teach them something and be confident in them forgetting it by the next time I talk to them. Things like moving files around directories is black magic to them. Directories are black magic to them. The problem I see with this solution is two-fold: 1. The people who understand this stuff…

Oh my. That reminded me of a colleague of mine who thought I was doing "black magic" when I converted from "text to columns" in Excel. Guess what, she has a PhD in Geography. That really emphasizes your point.

For me, the problem with the ribbon has been (the times I tried to use Office 2010) that there are some more "advanced" commands (like, inserting a cross-reference to a Figure or Table) which became quite hidden away in the Ribbon. Specially, since in the old toolbar mode, I could add buttons to the actions I used most (I actually have a button for text-to-columns in Excel, or to bring the "insert cross reference" in Word, among others).

From my experience, the ribbon does not give you that ability.

Actually, every time I have to use the ribbon (my institute's laptop has office 2010) I start imaging an addon which "learns" what are the most used commands and configures the "Home" (or another) ribbon tab showing icons to access those commands. Surely, someone must have already thought of that no?

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#96

Post by testcock1 »

rickmb wrote: post #16
varunsrin wrote: post #9

The first problem with the article here is that some of the buttons (Move To, Copy To) did not exist previously. They are also extensions of existing functions (Move, Copy) - so concluding that half the UI is covered by buttons that were not used is an inaccurate assumption. Secondly, the actions are being moved from the context menu to the ribbon. Most new computer users find it very hard to remember additional, non…

> but it will be extremely helpful for beginners Methinks that kind of summarizes the issue: Microsoft doesn't seem to realize it's not 1995 anymore. "Beginners" are no longer a big market, and people are more comfortable with "discovering" software interfaces, as proven by the success of web apps, Apple, etcetera.

I think this is a very subjective viewpoint, which is understandable considering the website we're on, but it still overlooks how huge the PC market really is, along with the Windows userbase, and the nature of a lot of its users. There's a huge segment of the Windows userbase who will always be beginners at computers, and their habits and methods are usually mindblowing to any "knowledgeable" user. One such example was the mass of people who typed "facebook login" into Google any time they wanted to log-in into Facebook, and got thoroughly confused and angry when the first hit suddenly led them to ReadWriteWeb's article on Facebook's log-in, filling the comments section with cries of where is the log-in, what is this crap, shitty re-design, let me in!, etc.

Because of users like this, Microsoft is where it is. Any big revamp, and they'll just get millions of confused customers who suddenly can't make sense of the most basic functionality. It is Microsoft's own doing that they made their users get used to interfaces like this, but it's not as easy as just scraping it and throwing up something new.

It's also easy to forget that Windows has a userbase 10 times its nearest competitor (which is to say this brings in challenges which competitors might not face).

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#97

Post by dhimes »

varunsrin wrote: post #67
wtallis wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to Microsoft's data, more than 85% of the command usage in Explorer is through keyboard shortcuts or context menus. Clearly, it isn't that hard to get used to using context menus and keyboard shortcuts. It seems to me that a lot of people here on HN are simply using this issue to talk about how much better they are at using a computer than the ordinary person, who is apparently quite inept. Unless there is…

This is a classic case of misinterpreting the data - 85% use it because the only way you can copy, without using a context menu or a keyboard shortcut is by holding down Alt and then clicking on the Edit menu.The point is, people use keyboard shortcuts & context menus because they have to today. This is the danger with reading too much into simple data - just because 85% of the people do X, it doesn't mean that X is…

When I browse, I prefer to open pages from hyperlinks in new tabs. For example, if I google something, each result I pursue gets its own tab. Doing that in ios was not at all intuitive, and only discoverable by happenstance. (And it is VERY klunky, but that's another story).

Editing is also a pain in the ass on it. It is a wonderful os for very simple tasks, but as the complexity grows it is very limiting.

Maybe that's the moral of this thread.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#98

Post by iaskwhy »

cwbrandsma wrote: post #36
dhimes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most new computer users find it very hard to remember additional, non intuitive actions like right clicking & context menus I didn't realize this. In fact, if I were asked to guess, I would have answered that most new users would pick up pretty quickly how to use context menus, especially if the context menus had related commands like file manipulation if in Windows Explorer (is it still called that?), or formatting…

Work in support sometime. It is EXTREMELY common to find users that really don't know about right-click. Or that double-click everything. These are not new users either, they have been using computers for decades. For new users I might agree that they could figure out a right click because everything is new. But for users where everything is familiar ("I've always done it this way"), it gets much harder to break thos…

I guess that partly explains the reason behind the single mouse button on Apple computers for quite some time.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#99

Post by pointyhat »

Disclaimer: I'm a Windows and Mac OS X "power user" and I'm going to be rather critical of Apple who are seen as at the forefront of UI design. I'm probably going to get voted down for this.

I'm a proponent of the Ribbon UI and I fucking hate toolbars in OS X.

I use Outlook, Word, Excel and Windows Live Mail extensively. All of which have the ribbon UI. It turns out that for the sake of actually getting stuff done, this is incredibly useful. I genuiely hardly ever need to use the context menu because what I need is there "in my face" and "obvious". While this fits newbie usage patterns perfectly, it also helps us power users who don't always switch back to the keyboard shortcuts (mouse already in hand) and don't want to jump through several hoops (like faffing with context menus) to get stuff done.

On the other hand, I have absolutely no fucking idea what the hell the toolbar buttons do when I'm using Finder or Mail on OS-X (Snow Leopard and Lion). The icons are crap, there are no visual cues and I always end up dropping to a terminal to get stuff done because I simply can't be arsed to figure it out or piss around with right clicking or the awful keyboard shortcut system on OS X. I don't think people usually get that far with OS X without getting "shiny I paid $2000 so it must be good Apple mental block" as I call it.

I'm fed up of so-called self-proclaimed experts chucking out blog posts criticising user interfaces while masturbating over Apple's efforts. Microsoft's UI allows you to get shit done and get it done quickly. So it might not be as aesthetically pleasing, but it works and works well for those of us with shit in our eyes.

Also, Microsoft research what you want rather than tell you what you're having (like Apple do).

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#100

Post by jdp23 »

alanfalcon wrote: post #51

Reminds me of this video, which I was told was actually created by Microsoft as a self-parody, though I don't have any supporting evidence. "Microsoft Designs the iPod Package:" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9HfdSp2E2A

Yes, this video was done by an internal group at Microsoft.
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