Why no Steam, Notch? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why no Steam, Notch?

#91

Post by nkassis » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 11:11 PM UTC

MostAwesomeDude wrote: post #53

mcantor wrote: post #4

I really admire how much Notch seems to understand opposing viewpoints that most people would simply make inflammatory posts about. His diplomacy here, as well as with Bethesda, has been stellar: Not "Steam is a DRM-ridden mess that I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole, bwa ha ha!", but instead, "I understand why they'd want to control their platform." Not "Bethesda are an Orwellian corporate giant trying to crush t…

He has worked hard to torch the bridges between Mojang and the open-source communities surrounding Minecraft. He doesn't like people hacking his code, or creating tools which interoperate with his releases. You might have noticed that some mods have been pulled into the main Minecraft tree; the person doing that pulling is always jeb, another Mojang employee. Notch himself isn't very happy about it. Projects like Bra…

That's what I admire about John Carmack. He wants people to hack his games and do stuff with them. He pushes to release old engines as GPL (soon the Doom 3 engine will be released, offering some real game code to study for people wanting to get into game development)

Re: Why no Steam, Notch?

#92

Post by sid0 » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 11:12 PM UTC

flyosity wrote: post #48

Honest question from an iPhone developer... I know many people on HN are rooting for walled gardens to fail (App Store) and for openness to triumph. Do these same people willingly use Steam and think it's great? Isn't Steam's delivery platform for games and the App Store's delivery platform for iOS apps pretty much the same concept? If someone is against the App Store on principle, shouldn't they also be against Stea…

Let's say I have an iOS device and wish to install a non-App Store app using it. Setting aside jailbreaking for the moment, what is the barrier to doing so? $500 or so for a new Android phone + all the time spent looking for replacements etc. The iOS platform is bundled with the App Store and there isn't much you can do about it.

Now let's say I have a Windows or Mac PC and I'd like to install a non-Steam game on it. What is the barrier to doing so? Pretty much zero, since there are a ton of other digital and retail options. Steam isn't the only way of downloading PC games, so there's plenty you can do about it.

Re: Why no Steam, Notch?

#93

Post by sid0 » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 11:15 PM UTC

niklas_a wrote: post #89

rmc wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a monopoly on installing software on iOS. Steam does not have a monopoly on installing software on Windows.

But iOS is only 18% of all mobile devices. Windows is 90% of all laptops/desktops. You are not comparing oranges with oranges.

You aren't locked into Steam for all game purchases.

Re: Why no Steam, Notch?

#94

Post by daeken » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 12:10 AM UTC

TillE wrote: post #85

ido wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are already many of these out there. Let's say they are all pretty sub-optimal both from a player's and a developer's perspective.

Precisely. Desura and the rest are a bit disappointing. There's a huge opportunity to make something not entirely unlike the Mac App Store, but for PC games. Keep it simple and open, with few rules and reasonably low fees. And no DRM. As a developer and a player, that's what I want. A package manager with a payment system and a store front, basically. You can add achievements and friend lists and the rest later.

While I have no interest in getting into this space, I've been thinking for a bit about how bothered I am with having to wait for games on Steam to download before I start playing them. With the connections we have now, downloading behind the scenes and streaming things as they come seems viable, but I haven't seen anyone try this. Would make for a great addition to a game store.

Re: Why no Steam, Notch?

#95

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 12:11 AM UTC

daeken wrote: post #94

TillE wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely. Desura and the rest are a bit disappointing. There's a huge opportunity to make something not entirely unlike the Mac App Store, but for PC games. Keep it simple and open, with few rules and reasonably low fees. And no DRM. As a developer and a player, that's what I want. A package manager with a payment system and a store front, basically. You can add achievements and friend lists and the rest later.

While I have no interest in getting into this space, I've been thinking for a bit about how bothered I am with having to wait for games on Steam to download before I start playing them. With the connections we have now, downloading behind the scenes and streaming things as they come seems viable, but I haven't seen anyone try this. Would make for a great addition to a game store.

[deleted]

Re: Why no Steam, Notch?

#96

Post by norswap » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 12:34 AM UTC

MostAwesomeDude wrote: post #53

mcantor wrote: post #4

I really admire how much Notch seems to understand opposing viewpoints that most people would simply make inflammatory posts about. His diplomacy here, as well as with Bethesda, has been stellar: Not "Steam is a DRM-ridden mess that I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole, bwa ha ha!", but instead, "I understand why they'd want to control their platform." Not "Bethesda are an Orwellian corporate giant trying to crush t…

He has worked hard to torch the bridges between Mojang and the open-source communities surrounding Minecraft. He doesn't like people hacking his code, or creating tools which interoperate with his releases. You might have noticed that some mods have been pulled into the main Minecraft tree; the person doing that pulling is always jeb, another Mojang employee. Notch himself isn't very happy about it. Projects like Bra…

Hmm, if I am not mistaken they are soon to release a totally free modding membership, which will basically means access some (most ?) of the source code to modders.

Actually, it's here : http://notch.tumblr.com/post/4955141617/the-plan-for-mods

Also, I'd be curious to know your sources regarding these infos (particularly the "notch isn't very happy about it" part). You say "our channels of communication", are you somehow involved with Bukkit or Bravo ?

Re: Why no Steam, Notch?

#97

Post by grey » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 12:59 AM UTC

nkassis wrote: post #91

MostAwesomeDude wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has worked hard to torch the bridges between Mojang and the open-source communities surrounding Minecraft. He doesn't like people hacking his code, or creating tools which interoperate with his releases. You might have noticed that some mods have been pulled into the main Minecraft tree; the person doing that pulling is always jeb, another Mojang employee. Notch himself isn't very happy about it. Projects like Bra…

That's what I admire about John Carmack. He wants people to hack his games and do stuff with them. He pushes to release old engines as GPL (soon the Doom 3 engine will be released, offering some real game code to study for people wanting to get into game development)

Notch has a similar attitude, as expressed at http://www.minecraft.net/about.jsp,

specifically "once sales start dying and a minimum time has passed, I will release the game source code as some kind of open source."

Re: Why no Steam, Notch?

#98

Post by MostAwesomeDude » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 1:00 AM UTC

norswap wrote: post #96

MostAwesomeDude wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has worked hard to torch the bridges between Mojang and the open-source communities surrounding Minecraft. He doesn't like people hacking his code, or creating tools which interoperate with his releases. You might have noticed that some mods have been pulled into the main Minecraft tree; the person doing that pulling is always jeb, another Mojang employee. Notch himself isn't very happy about it. Projects like Bra…

Hmm, if I am not mistaken they are soon to release a totally free modding membership, which will basically means access some (most ?) of the source code to modders. Actually, it's here : http://notch.tumblr.com/post/4955141617/the-plan-for-mods Also, I'd be curious to know your sources regarding these infos (particularly the "notch isn't very happy about it" part). You say "our channels of communication", are you som…

The source code will be shared source, not open source; it will not be something which people can freely redistribute.

I wrote Bravo. One of my big supporters is a guy who has been involved with Mojang's inner workings for a long time, and who has told many a horror story about the inner circles of MC communities. (Name withheld for privacy reasons.) There are Mojang employees, like mollstam (the webmaster), chilling in our IRC channel, but we're really not able to get much information transferred back and forth. Things like on-the-wire exploits and data leaks aren't received by upstream in a reasonable timeframe, which makes it painful to do good security.

Re: Why no Steam, Notch?

#99

Post by cookiecaper » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 1:43 AM UTC

MostAwesomeDude wrote: post #53

mcantor wrote: post #4

I really admire how much Notch seems to understand opposing viewpoints that most people would simply make inflammatory posts about. His diplomacy here, as well as with Bethesda, has been stellar: Not "Steam is a DRM-ridden mess that I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole, bwa ha ha!", but instead, "I understand why they'd want to control their platform." Not "Bethesda are an Orwellian corporate giant trying to crush t…

He has worked hard to torch the bridges between Mojang and the open-source communities surrounding Minecraft. He doesn't like people hacking his code, or creating tools which interoperate with his releases. You might have noticed that some mods have been pulled into the main Minecraft tree; the person doing that pulling is always jeb, another Mojang employee. Notch himself isn't very happy about it. Projects like Bra…

I would really like to see Notch release the whole thing under a non-commercial license. They should set up a bug tracker, develop in public, etc., and otherwise run as a normal OSS project, with the caveat that it is not full Free Software because of the clause preventing commercial activity.

I appreciate RMS and the Four Freedoms and what it's done for software, but I think we'd see a lot more code and a lot more relative freedom out there if someone set up a precedent and a pattern for other developers to follow in releasing source while maintaining revenue stream. It's not realistic to GPL everything, as the main developer can't make any money at that point. However, it is reasonable to release the source and say either "distribution must be limited to persons with a valid Minecraft license" or go totally non-commercial and only allow freeware derivatives (without separate license).

In this age, nothing is lost by doing this; people who aren't going to abide the license are not going to abide the license anyway, and the object code is copied around and traded on pirate networks freely. So, what more is lost by providing the source to all paying customers under legal terms that forbid activity that could threaten Mojang's revenue stream? I can't say I know of anything, but the benefit would be huge.

The only protection left against any digitized good is purely legal. If something gets online and a substantial portion of people have an interest in it, expect it to be irrevocably and freely traded in violation of any terms you establish. However, anything significant enough to be a threat to Mojang's profit stream will be vulnerable to legal remedies, and no major player (i.e., no one who'd have the money to pay Mojang) will run that risk when they know they will be sued and lose. It's just easier and cheaper to pay in the first place.

If they're planning on releasing the source to the mod community they might as well just open it straight up because it's bound to get leaked anyway.

Re: Why no Steam, Notch?

#100

Post by vacri » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 2:49 AM UTC

flyosity wrote: post #48

Honest question from an iPhone developer... I know many people on HN are rooting for walled gardens to fail (App Store) and for openness to triumph. Do these same people willingly use Steam and think it's great? Isn't Steam's delivery platform for games and the App Store's delivery platform for iOS apps pretty much the same concept? If someone is against the App Store on principle, shouldn't they also be against Stea…

Steam is a content delivery system. It does not prevent me from adminning my own computer or 'sideloading' other programs. It doesn't tell me that I don't need -foo-, only to tell me that I do need -foo- once it's implemented there. It doesn't force me to use certain hardware. Steam doesn't even dictate what major consumer OS I should use. Steam is a content delivery system, and apart from license control for the content that I purchase through it (and only that), Steam does not mandate my user experience to behave in any particular way.

There isn't much of a wall around the Steam garden.