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Goodbye, MIT

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Re: Goodbye, MIT

#91
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But wait, it gets better! One of the authors makes a living from taxpayer-funded endeavors (NIH, FDA). I imagine that if, eventually, he does enough to piss off people who pay him (say, Black taxpayers) to lose his funding, he'd whine about being cancelled so loudly, we won't need SETI. "Not on my dime!” goes both ways, huh. The other author is ungooglable, so they either work for the gov, or don't have to work at al…

While I agree with the authors opinion, I actually agree with you too, and quite like how succinctly you pointed out their hypocrisy. I personally didn't see it immediately. Regardless, allow me to answer your question to perhaps give you a different perspective on the matter. >Who are the people these two chaps see as being hurt by MIT's so-called "wokeness"? I.e., whom are they trying to help with their withdrawal…

Thanks! The hypocrisy is what stands out to me; other than that — I'm not donating any money to MIT either.

The real issue here is where the educational institutions get their money from, and how they spend the money they get.

Undergraduate admission systems are so deeply flawed that changing admission criteria does nothing, I feel: there's always a way to fine-tune them to get or exclude any demographic. I feel like the first step to addressing the disparity is making higher education free to begin with.

I'm on board with the idea of taking background into account, I'm just too pessimistic about the universities not twisting anything we come up with.

I agree with what you are saying (though the conclusion that "skin color has nothing to do with advantages" is flawed; you should look at where white people with background comparable to those of Nigerian immigrants end up). It's a data science question, and "skin color" has a nonzero weight.

Rephrase it as "skin color alone doesn't determine advantages or disadvantages, and comes after socioeconomic status" — and I don't think you'll find much disagreement; the idea that poor black people and poor white people have much more in common than the poor and the rich is the reason why the rich have been fueling racial tensions hundreds of years ago (divide and conquer). But the consequences of such divisions last a while.

But it doesn't seem like that is really what the authors of the original post care about anyway.

Say, firing of the chaplain who felt the need to issue a piblic comment on a tragedy that made the entire institution look stupid.

If I start talking about how deeply the entire education system is flawed — including the admission criteria — I'll be here for a very, very long time. I got a PhD in math, left academia for a software job, and am currently trying to figure out how to teach without being a cog in the education complex. My partner left after getting on the tenure track.

The amount of structural problems in our education is so immense, that "wokeness" (the way they think it's a problem) in general — and whatever is going on at MIT in particular — is so, so insignificant in comparison that I don't even know where to start.

And the virtue signaling and hubris of the two nincompoops that feel they're influencing the system by withholding their donations (tsk tsk, they never say how big they were anywau) is as astounding as the noise they make is insignificant.

If we want to have some straight talk, we need to start with federal funding of K12 education (having it tied to local/property taxes is oprressive by design).

We need to have national standards (please support common core — it's the only thing happening that doesn't make me want to pull my hair off).

We need not just free higher education, we need stipends to support the students while they are studying (hard to study when you have nowhere to live and nothing to eat).

Then, after all of that, we can start looking into admission criteria.

Elite private colleges are pretty open about not having fair admission: your parents went there — you're favored; that's a criterion they consider without shame.

Such institutions may not receive any taxpayer money.

But our state-funded schools have completely opaque admission criteria too, and funding subject to the whims of boards that have nothing to do with education. Case in point: the university my partner taught in thought of shutting down their physics department, citing too few majors produced as the reason, even though the department brought more in tuition and research grants than was ever spent on it.

The real reason was that the board who appointed the decision makers in a red rural state didn't like eggheads who don't vote for them.

It was a huge scandal, but the staff was powerless.

The rabbit holes of who is actually in control of how, what, and whom we teach go so deep, that thinking that any single issue is going to doom (or un-doom) or education is naïve at best.

Which is why I'm so pissed with these two fools.

As someone who's spent years actually teaching, I find the audacity of them saying "goodbye" to anything — and people, for some reason, caring about it! — both sad and amusing.

>What will happen when the universities stop being the leaders of free thought?

The late 1980s.

It's kind of hard to truly destroy a system where at the bottom level, people actually care about free thought, and are willing to work for slave wages (i.e. adjunct salaries) to keep it going, but boy have we succeeded a lot in turning universities into glorified trade schools.

>most will agree the great things Western civilization has achieved over the centuries mostly comes from our respect for free speech and free thought

I think Giordano Bruno might have disagreed, but that's a whole another conversation :)

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#92
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The chaplain is doing his job here. The Church in which he is ordained clearly disagreed, as the Archdiocese (not the school) asked him to resign as chaplain. Even assuming this is blameworthy at all, blaming the school for dismissing him is nonsensical.

It isn't clear that the church actually objected that much, for all their statement to the contrary. It isn't like they defrocked him or anything. It is more likely that MIT asked for him to be sacked and they took a decision not to fight over it because it wouldn't be helpful. What the chaplain was trying to do here was entirely in line with how he was meant to act. I wasn't blaming anyone but it does seem quite lik…

> It isn’t clear that the church actually objected that much, for all their statement to the contrary.

I disagree. Not only is it clear that they objected to his message, its clear from the Cardinal Archbishop’s own public message on the same issue two days before Moloney’s why they did.

> It isn’t like they defrocked him or anything.

Er, yeah, I mean no matter the severity of the disagreement, its not even the class of issue for which that is appropriate. It’s like saying DOJ must not really be upset at someone prosecuted for tax fraud because they didn’t seek the death penalty.

> It is more likely that MIT asked for him to be sacked and they took a decision not to fight over it because it wouldn’t be helpful.

It’s clearly the case that MIT brought Moloney’s message to the Archdiocese’s attention, and its pretty clear that the message stands in stark contrast to both the MIT President’s and the Cardinal Archbishop’s prior statements on the same issue. It’s not clear to me what even shadow of a basis you have for suggesting that MIT was upset but the Church viewed the chaplain as “entirely in line with how he was meant to act”.

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#93
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think to achieve equal opportunity it makes sense to make education equal. It's doable. Make it online and free. The HTTP protocol doesn't care about your social background. I absolutely can't understand why would any country require its citizens to pay for education in state-funded schools and universities. Educated people are the best and the biggest national asset. Anything that creates a barrier (monetary or n…

Thesis: We are 20 years behind where we should be in online university education, and the only reason we are where we are now is a pandemic. The universities were at the bleeding edge of new networked IT solutions even into the 1980s. As low-cost portable devices became available that could display high-quality real-time video on demand, it was clear that such a solution would soon be faster, cheaper and better than…

Ironically people these days get most of their extra-curricula learning from random (i.e. non-academic/non-teachers) people on Youtube.

I do too, and I don't think it's "worse" in quality than what they teach in university.

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#94
post #76

I have never understood why there is an expectation to treat everyone equally when people are very unequal, from their birth circumstances, which obviously they can't control, to their behavior as adults, which people do have control over. People don't treat me like Michael Jordon because, guess what? I cannot do the things he does. It would be rather silly for me to get all in a huff because I don't get the treatmen…

Here’s what you’ve never understood: the principle of judging folks accomplishments while taking into account their opportunities.

No one thinks everyone is the same. But not all SAT scores are created equal.

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#95
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But then again, our society is full of compassionate safety nets for such kids. That really depends on what you are referring to by "our society." If you're talking about the US, many would dispute that characterization.

I'd not call it a characterization but a fact. I was initially thinking of Western(ized) society, although a moment's reflection suggests to me that it's nearly all current human society. For starters, (nearly?) every nation offers free public education. Westernized nations offer food assistance or some form of welfare for low- or no-income families. There are countless other programs at just at this "systemic," nati…

> I'd not call it a characterization but a fact.

It's a subjective, unquantified statement. It cannot possibly be called a fact.

In any case the proof is in the pudding: children in the US who are born poor are highly likely to die poor, and we are significantly worse in that respect than other Western countries.

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#96
post #3

I feel genuinely conflicted about these topics. Part of me says “I agree with the letter authors completely. People should experience equal opportunity, equal Justice, and equal responsibility.” Another part of me says “that’s literally impossible (or incompatible) with different families raising their children with different circumstances.” Overall, I lean pretty strongly towards individual families raising their ch…

One of the problems with wokeness is I think it started as perfectly reasonable stuff like you mention, but then the activists / priests of wokeness let power go to their heads and get more concerned with having anyone who criticises them fired than helping the underprivileged.

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#97
>We graduated from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology more than 50 years ago

Therein lays part of the problem.

Yale and MIT and Harvard allow the sons and daughter of wealthy people in for donations. George W Bush got in to Yale because of his dad not his academic record which history shows to be below average.

But their problem is with for example making the huge campus safe for women?

Laughable.

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#98
post #96
post #3

I feel genuinely conflicted about these topics. Part of me says “I agree with the letter authors completely. People should experience equal opportunity, equal Justice, and equal responsibility.” Another part of me says “that’s literally impossible (or incompatible) with different families raising their children with different circumstances.” Overall, I lean pretty strongly towards individual families raising their ch…

One of the problems with wokeness is I think it started as perfectly reasonable stuff like you mention, but then the activists / priests of wokeness let power go to their heads and get more concerned with having anyone who criticises them fired than helping the underprivileged.

So wokeness is SYSTEMD ???

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#99
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The answer and the future is kids will be raised by the state and given an equal playing field." I read this as sarcasm, but I re-read it and am not so sure? I hope you're will to pay for that in blood because there will be war over it. We get that there's no such thing as a perfectly level playing field, but we're not going to allow children to be raised by the state to achieve what will be frankly in all likelihoo…

The general idea came to me when discussing equal pay for women and how kids affects a women's career. Thinking about ways to equalize education with kids frim different economic level. I came upon this idea. There are many benefits and many drawbacks. No matter how taboo this topic it feels like the natural evolution of putting the children first, equalizing poverty backgrounds, equalizing pay, increasing workforce…

>Why would you allow untrained professionals to raise our most valuable resource?

I'm so sorry your parents didn't show love to you.

Re: Goodbye, MIT

#100
post #76

I have never understood why there is an expectation to treat everyone equally when people are very unequal, from their birth circumstances, which obviously they can't control, to their behavior as adults, which people do have control over. People don't treat me like Michael Jordon because, guess what? I cannot do the things he does. It would be rather silly for me to get all in a huff because I don't get the treatmen…

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