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The promise and paradox of decentralization

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Re: The promise and paradox of decentralization

#91

Post by jacobobryant »

cbsmith wrote: post #89
jacobobryant wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a significant chunk of e-mail that does not go in to the spam folder is spam, and that a bunch of e-mail that is not spam ends up there. Maybe for you, but not for me.

Well, that's great for you, but the systemic realities are nonetheless a very real problem.

> the systemic realities are nonetheless a very real problem.

If you have data/industry experience in support of this, I am genuinely interested to hear about it, otherwise it seems like a case of my anecdote against your anecdote. It is not clear to me as a layperson that spam misclassification is indeed that big of a problem.

Re: The promise and paradox of decentralization

#92

Post by igorkraw »

pphysch wrote: post #37
igorkraw wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To answer just what you have in your post with what is the lives reality of people of Switzerland: - anyone who can get 100k people to agree with them decides what to put on the ballot - the parliament, which can shunt responsibility to the people after a best effort - courts, politicians, in the end additional referenda settle disputes District gerrymandering is also a uniquely Anglosphere-related problem that doesn…

I agree for the most part, but keep in mind that "old" nations like Switzerland and Germany have a distinct advantage here. Family relationships trace back literally centuries and there is a strong sense of national tradition, which implies some level of ontological agreement and makes democracy possible to some extent. This shortcut does not apply to implementing a functioning democracy in, say, some "nation" of div…

Families yes, but I nees to push back against the idea of national tradition and ethnic homogeneity mattering here.

The nation thing is very much not the case for Germany and Switzerland at least. France more, and for homogeneous population maybe the nordics but the myth of the ethnically homogeneous long nation state is something that I mainly hear from conservative/right wingers who want to claim diversity doesn't work (not implying you are, just in general). The comparison with a colonial overlord carving out a centralised nation is also not too relevant, except that I agree that was bad and trying to impose European civic systems without also building the infrastructure and economy to support them doesn't work?

But Germany the nation was born in the late 19th century (Bismarck, Prussia taking over etc) and modern Germany has a complicated relationship to the old nation and nationalism in general. In Switzerland, they are literally 4 ethnic groups with regional fracfionalism tied together by will and democratic traditions, any ethnic stuff doesn't really apply there.

Re: The promise and paradox of decentralization

#93

Post by igorkraw »

pphysch wrote: post #17
igorkraw wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to see true décentralisation, look to Europe, especially Germany, Switzerland etc., but also the EU And for an ideology that actually build decentralised but just systems, I am strangely enamored by anarchists. They(except Ancaps) have been working at this for about 1-2 centuries and it's a hard problem (and not all anarchists are trying to be smart about it). The only way that I can see to make it work (…

Interesting interpretation. In general, Northern Europe is far less individualistic[1] than USA. Don't mistake deeply entrenched (perhaps invisible) traditional hierarchies for the lack thereof. I view anarchism as another expression of classical liberalism, with the same structural faults re: decentralization, etc. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

The Jante law, tall poppy syndrome etc. is quite overblown in my personal experience, but it might have been a thing in prior times. But in modern Germany and Switzerland (where I lived from) I think the systems simply recognises more that the individual is nothing without the collective and tries to put systems into place that make sure single individuals can't co-opt the system (nothing is perfect on this of course, and rent seeking, elite populists ala Trump stirring sentiments etc all exists).

It's the difference between positive and negative freedoms (I think in germany and especially the nordics poor people are much more able to chase their happiness than in the US,in the sense a decent life without homelessnes, fear of bankruptcy due to disease and horrible working conditions is possible, not if you want to become a millionaire).

And anarchism was literally born out od rejection of classical liberalism and "classical liberals" don't really like them https://mises.org/library/are-libertarians-anarchists. (not a good source on anarchism, but just to give evidence that classical liberalism/libertarians and anarchists are not the same. There are socialist libertarians who are closer to anarchists but I think most libertarians would not align with them)

Re: The promise and paradox of decentralization

#94

Post by stevenroose »

evandwight wrote: post #80
bullen wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you link to it?

It's not done yet. There's a discord link if you want to chat about how to improve it. https://efficientdemocracy.com New name needed

Please be aware of Lemmy, the ActivityPub-compatible Reddit clone. It's in a quite far stadium of functionality, but I'm sure extra development on their moderation systems would be more than welcome!

Re: The promise and paradox of decentralization

#95

Post by cbsmith »

jacobobryant wrote: post #91
cbsmith wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's great for you, but the systemic realities are nonetheless a very real problem.

> the systemic realities are nonetheless a very real problem. If you have data/industry experience in support of this, I am genuinely interested to hear about it, otherwise it seems like a case of my anecdote against your anecdote. It is not clear to me as a layperson that spam misclassification is indeed that big of a problem.

https://www.sitepoint.com/spam-roi-profit-on-1-in-125m-respo...

Re: The promise and paradox of decentralization

#96

Post by cbsmith »

jacobobryant wrote: post #91
cbsmith wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's great for you, but the systemic realities are nonetheless a very real problem.

> the systemic realities are nonetheless a very real problem. If you have data/industry experience in support of this, I am genuinely interested to hear about it, otherwise it seems like a case of my anecdote against your anecdote. It is not clear to me as a layperson that spam misclassification is indeed that big of a problem.

In terms of industry data, spam filters are generally seen as effective with about 99% effective, though Google has claimed they've achieved about 99.9% efficacy in the last few years, though there's some question as to how they are measuring that.

The problem is, even at 99.9% efficacy, with around 50% of all e-mail being spam (that number used to be much higher, and there's some question as to whether the drop to 50% is a trend or a reflection of failures to detect/identify), that's still a lot of spam getting through.

Re: The promise and paradox of decentralization

#97

Post by pphysch »

igorkraw wrote: post #93
pphysch wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting interpretation. In general, Northern Europe is far less individualistic[1] than USA. Don't mistake deeply entrenched (perhaps invisible) traditional hierarchies for the lack thereof. I view anarchism as another expression of classical liberalism, with the same structural faults re: decentralization, etc. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

The Jante law, tall poppy syndrome etc. is quite overblown in my personal experience, but it might have been a thing in prior times. But in modern Germany and Switzerland (where I lived from) I think the systems simply recognises more that the individual is nothing without the collective and tries to put systems into place that make sure single individuals can't co-opt the system (nothing is perfect on this of course…

European collectivism definitely took a hit during the Cold War (collectivist = "communist"), but it's still there and will see a resurgence in the coming decades.

> And anarchism was literally born out od rejection of classical liberalism and "classical liberals" don't really like them

This doesn't quite align with what I've learned. Nonetheless, sectarian infighting between liberal ideologies is indeed a common theme.

Re: The promise and paradox of decentralization

#98

Post by api »

cbsmith wrote: post #82
pessimizer wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Decentralization seems to work well for cases where individuals are privately interacting with other users they already know. It seems much more difficult to solve the problem of public forum websites where anyone can contribute content. But these don't actually need to exist. Decentralization doesn't have to mean a flat hierarchy, it could (against all trends) be a hierarchy with the user at the top, as social med…

A hierarchy with the user on top is pretty much exactly what he's describing. It's a perfect environment for grifters & manipulators; to the extent that they get filtered out by people smart enough to recognize them for who they are, that's doing them a favour.

This is a huge problem on conventional social media too.

We seem to be moving toward a society where grifters simply feast on the uneducated and un-discerning. The thing that makes it hard to police this is that the marks will themselves fight for the grifter, as we see with all the people fighting tooth and nail against their own access to health care or against treatments to stop them from getting horribly ill or dying in a pandemic.

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