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Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

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Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#91
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not entirely true. The EPA has federal authorities under the Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, and the Safe Water Drinking Act to regulate wastes derived from extraction activity into air and water supplies. The exemptions and authorities are complex, but it's incorrect to say there's no federal regulation over this activity in the state of Texas.

It's not true at all. Federal regulations dictate most environmental standards and in top of that TCEQ is a very competent and at times tough regulator. EPA definitely has a dog in the fight, especially considering that a 250 megawatt power plant would be a literal "major stationary source" under the clean air act

I was speaking directly to the well complex, not any future power plant. The EPA is definitely involved in that.

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah wow you sure showed those people trying to power rockets with solar power.

The FAA document is pretty clear on this subject. SpaceX is building a 1MW solar plant and a 250MW natural gas plant. See the document in question: https://www.faa.gov/space/stakeholder_engagement/spacex_star... Just Ctrl-F on "250 MW", to find page 130/131, which discusses the 1MW solar + 250MW natural gas plan. -------- As such, we know how they're planning on powering the rocket. With traditional natural gas metho…

Oh thought they were burning the gas for more base electricity.

This does make sense, but it is odd that the existing gas market is not sufficient.

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#93
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we doing that? Was some new gas tax passed in the US?

Last time I checked in Europe 80% of the gas price was taxes. Last time that I checked in the US up to 30% of the fuel price was paid for RINS, aka renewable energy certificates. So yes we do pay for sustainability. Unlike the billionaire explorers.

Space research and development is a huge part of sustainability. It is literally our only chance to move some polluting industries off Earth, at least long term. (I do not expect to see it happening in my lifetime.)

Reusable rockets are a huge progress in space research. People long thought them outright impossible or impractical. And aside from SpaceX, no one has them yet.

ESA's model of throwing away the entire Ariane at each launch is the very opposite of sustainable. It is an expensive waste of money propped up by French military interests.

(Not that the ULA, the Russians or the Chinese do something different.)

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#94
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, what SpaceX is doing doesn't really matter. I can't just show up to Arkansas and say I'm fracking for oil to cure cancer and get hand-waved through. They're private entities, no matter what they're doing, and they're subject to the same scrutiny that everyone else puts up with.

This is not true at all. Doubly not true when your program is subsidized by Federal dollars and takes place adjacent to protected federal lands. The FAA is subject to NEPA review, and hence any SpaceX activity in this area must go through the same process as every other industrial activity that impacts federal interests.

Surely you know by now that Elon/SpaceX will get its fuel no matter what, even if it means trucking the fuel there, seems to me your best case scenario will increase net emissions.

Protecting the environment is not the point of this stunt, is it?

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#95
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just thinking about this phrase in regards to Musk about ten minutes ago. “The ends” are the most laudable things I can imagine: electrifying the world and colonizing other celestial bodies. While I love the goals, I am afraid of what a mission-driven person might rationalize and do to achieve them.

Yes, heaven forbids he drills 10,000th gas well in the US on his way.

I was not thinking about gas wells at all. I have no opinion there except I thought we were doing the Sabatier reaction process to prep for Mars and be carbon negative.

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"[Edit]: You’re a coward if you downvote to suppress an opinion without having the decency to engage in debate." The other explanation would be, that your arguments and discussion style are not the best and not worth engaging with.

Enjoy the internet points counter go to zero then while you and the hive mind declare that one kind of fire produces different carbon than the other based on the political affiliation of the cause. Maybe that's the uncomfortable debate? Idk, what do i know man? I'm just a guy with questions for idiotic sounding arguments without a citation.

> the hive mind declare that one kind of fire produces different carbon than the other...Maybe that's the uncomfortable debate?

Just a random reader here, but no one is saying this. Either you're willfully ignoring the point, or you missed it. It has nothing to do with "a different kind of carbon" or "the political affiliation of the cause."

Here is another explanation. I hope you find it not idiotic, and you'll find a citation for everything I say (including quotes from the source to back up my specific comments):

Hydrocarbons in the form of fossil fuels have been stored for millions of years. They reflect carbons that have not been extant in the atmosphere for so long that they have been irrelevant to the climate. These fuels also developed over geological time, so the creation of /new/ fossil fuel (i.e., carbon) stores is also irrelevant to our climate in human-scale years.

On the contrary, carbons in the form of trees, bushes, and grasses have been pulled from the atmosphere within the past years or decades (plant mass comes from atmospheric carbon, not the ground) as the plants and trees grew.

When grasses and trees burn, yes - that carbon gets released into the atmosphere. But it then gets photosynthesized back into grasses and trees over the next years and decades, recapturing that carbon in a time period that is relevant to human lifespans.

However when fossil fuels burn, they release net-new (from an atmospheric perspective) carbon with no recapture mechanism available for perhaps millions of years.

Of course there are exceptions. Old growth forests have an outsized impact on atmospheric carbon vs. grasslands. Additionally, the climate change-driven increase in forest fire frequency, combined with our already-high carbon levels, mean the short-term increase in carbon may have an outsized influence on drought and other negative climate changes before it can be recaptured.

So yes, recent environmental research is looking far more carefully at forest fires' impact on carbon load and climate impact. But no, this has nothing to do with "trimming" or "raking" our forests. Nor does it have to do with the "politics" of fossil fuel vs. forestry, nor is it "different carbon."

I hope this helps answer your questions.

Reference: https://www.futuredirections.org.au/publication/wildfires-gr...

> In Australia wildfires may well be GHG emission neutral over time. A recent report released by the Australian Government Department of Industry, Science, Energy and Resources concluded that based on existing evidence, “… bushfires release significant amounts of carbon dioxide, but generally recover over time, generating a significant carbon sink in the years following the fire.”

> For millennia fire has been a feature of the natural environment. An equilibrium existed whereby the quantity of CO2 released into the atmosphere by burning and the quantity stored in plant material by photosynthesis remained neutral.

> This view, while appropriately conservative in the context of the Kyoto protocols in 1997, now still understates the importance of wildfire related GHG emission in two ways. Firstly, CO2 released into the atmosphere by wildfires can remain there for a period of approximately seven months before it is re-captured by photosynthesis. During this time it will contribute to the warming of the planet. Secondly, and most importantly, there is compelling evidence from a number of sources that the incidence and intensity of wildfires is increasing.

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#97
post #79

Somehow people will find a way to spin this as a positive thing and a rightful thing that lord Musk is doing for the future of humanity™. But Zuck is the devil for giving you the option (but not the obligation) to watch pics of other people's vacations. You know you study the game, you think you understand, you look at the logic which should be the strong point of HN and reddit type crowd...but in the end it always e…

...what?

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#98
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will rely on the Sabatier process to produce fuel on other celestial bodies. And the corresponding technology must be tested first - why not in Boca Chica? I don't think that anyone is trying to make the claim that SpaceX will use the Sabatier process to fuel Starships here on Earth right now routinely . As you say, gas is cheaper to buy here on Earth. But they still must have the technology mastered before they…

The process IS already mastered, depending on the bar you set? This isn’t something unknown or theoretical.

Yes, but you still need to design, assemble and test the particular equipment you want to use, unless you can do with off-the-shelf components.

And contemporary off-the-shelf components that perform the Sabatier process aren't probably meant to operate outside the Earth.

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#99
post #73

Looking at the image in the article, the 'fast fire accellerator' looks suspiciously like a traditional waste gas flare common for the past 50 years in petroleum refining. Its common to try and redefine these as the EPA cracks down on them and they are environmentally bad. The last major push in industry was to try calling them a steam flare. Disclosure: I worked a few years in refineries as a mechanical maintenance…

IIRC, there is no longer a waste gas flare at SpaceX's facilities. They are doing methane recapture and recondensing.

Re: Engineer demos how SpaceX is building fracked well gas plant

#100
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will rely on the Sabatier process to produce fuel on other celestial bodies. And the corresponding technology must be tested first - why not in Boca Chica? I don't think that anyone is trying to make the claim that SpaceX will use the Sabatier process to fuel Starships here on Earth right now routinely . As you say, gas is cheaper to buy here on Earth. But they still must have the technology mastered before they…

The process IS already mastered, depending on the bar you set? This isn’t something unknown or theoretical.

Under STP and 1G, yes. Mars isn't at STP or 1G, so they can't assume that the Earth-standard machinery will work without modifications. This is a reasonable thing to experiment with.
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