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Minecraft to add telemetry

minecraft.net

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Re: Minecraft to add telemetry

#91

Post by JohnFen »

slg wrote: post #28
belval wrote: post #7

Eh Minecraft is a video game, I just don't see the privacy risk with "typical" Windows-level telemetry happening there. At some point we have to accept that this data actually helps them fix real issues too, they're not monetizing their players directly with it.

>At some point we have to accept that this data actually helps them fix real issues too It is strange that this community of all communities has such a resistance to this idea. Software developers should know better than anyone how difficult it is to identify and fix vague software problems without having specific details about the problem. Yes, there is a negotiation between the value of telemetry and privacy and of…

> It is strange that this community of all communities has such a resistance to this idea.

I don't think many people here have any resistance to this. It's simply true. I think a lot of people, though, think that benefit isn't sufficient to overcome the drawbacks.

Re: Minecraft to add telemetry

#92

Post by JohnFen »

conradev wrote: post #37
slg wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At some point we have to accept that this data actually helps them fix real issues too It is strange that this community of all communities has such a resistance to this idea. Software developers should know better than anyone how difficult it is to identify and fix vague software problems without having specific details about the problem. Yes, there is a negotiation between the value of telemetry and privacy and of…

I totally agree. Telemetry is invaluable to making software better. Transparency is key here. If projects explained the steps taken to anonymize the data (either provably using Differential Privacy, or approximated via some other means), I feel like people might trust them more. Even with DP, though, the server does see IP addresses, even if it doesn't know what the telemetry is, and that alone might cross the line f…

The problem with explanations and promises is that there's a lot of bad water that has flowed under those bridges. They amount to just saying "trust me".

As a dev, telemetry makes me nervous because so many projects rely on it too heavily and make bad design decisions because the telemetry blinds them.

Re: Minecraft to add telemetry

#93

Post by JohnFen »

FinalBriefing wrote: post #48
koolba wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the difference between always sending something and a pop up asking if you want to send a bug report.

How about performance issues and silent errors? Finding areas that need to me optimized because a lot of users have subtle issues kinda needs passive data collection. As long as it is anonymous, it's a good thing, IMO.

> As long as it is anonymous, it's a good thing, IMO.

As long as users give informed consent, then it's acceptable.

Re: Minecraft to add telemetry

#94

Post by Zandikar »

falcolas wrote: post #64
belval wrote: post #7

Eh Minecraft is a video game, I just don't see the privacy risk with "typical" Windows-level telemetry happening there. At some point we have to accept that this data actually helps them fix real issues too, they're not monetizing their players directly with it.

> they're not monetizing their players directly with it How do you know? Did they pinkie swear on it? Did they add any kind of T&C around their use of Telemetry specifically? Telemetry that can be used to identify frequently used game functionality could equally be used to identify game functionality that can be monetized. Identifying how a user dies is a fantastic way to identify items which can be sold to prevent t…

Precisely. Another commenter said they were shocked to see this community have a negative reaction to telemetry in this instance (and/or generally), and this is why: For-Profit corporations have routinely and repeatedly demonstrated that they should never be given the benefit of the doubt in this area. The developers and engineers in charge of game balance or mechanics may be people we can intellectually relate to and understand the positive value of telemetry, but we more than most should also be aware of how those same people have management to answer to who see something to be abused to improve monetization.

It can be a good thing, yes. Why on earth would anyone assume it would be used and only used in positive, privacy respecting ways in this day and age?

Re: Minecraft to add telemetry

#95

Post by JohnFen »

II2II wrote: post #85
belval wrote: post #7

Eh Minecraft is a video game, I just don't see the privacy risk with "typical" Windows-level telemetry happening there. At some point we have to accept that this data actually helps them fix real issues too, they're not monetizing their players directly with it.

The problem is an irrational degree of distrust in the industry as a whole. It's not that I blame those who distrust any form of telemetry. Many companies are eager to harvest as much personal information as possible. Depending upon one's definition of personal information, some of the data acquired by telemetry can be used for that purpose. In many cases the data collection process is deliberately opaque. In the rem…

I think the software industry as a whole has earned a high degree of distrust on these issues. It's not irrational.

Re: Minecraft to add telemetry

#96

Post by cylon13 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #81
slg wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At some point we have to accept that this data actually helps them fix real issues too It is strange that this community of all communities has such a resistance to this idea. Software developers should know better than anyone how difficult it is to identify and fix vague software problems without having specific details about the problem. Yes, there is a negotiation between the value of telemetry and privacy and of…

There are at least two distinct issues here this community is concerned about: 1. Telemetry is unethical if the users didn't provide informed consent (opt-in) for it. It's not just a theoretical point - anyone who's worked in tech sector for a while should know most companies cannot be trusted to behave ethically (especially if they took VC funding). 2. There's a certain dysfunction/antipattern that's popular in tech…

Worse in a really insidious way too. Optimizing based on engagement for instance could be maxxing the amount of time people spend using a service, while minning unseen variables people care about like their emotional state while engaged. It’s sort of an inevitable thing that optimizers do to things they don’t measure, and it’s an extremely difficult problem to put everything people care about into the equation. Like for instance, think of how horrible a polynomial fit gets for a function just outside the window you are fitting as you add more terms.

Re: Minecraft to add telemetry

#97

Post by hulitu »

philliphaydon wrote: post #57
hulitu wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I totally agree. Telemetry is invaluable to making software better. Can you give 1(one) example of a program which was improved by using telemetry ? And no, trashing the UI in the name of change or modernism does not count. Thank you.

Windows.

You mean that calc.exe opening in 3 seconds is better than instantly. Or dissapearing ribbon and title bar on windows in a multimonitor setup is better than before. Or the new designed shutdown menu.Or the white fonts on light background. Or dissapearing scrollbars because someone thought that this is a good idea. Or the new save dialog when you need 3 clicks just to be able to select the folder where you want to save.

Re: Minecraft to add telemetry

#99

Post by im3w1l »

cylon13 wrote: post #96
TeMPOraL wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are at least two distinct issues here this community is concerned about: 1. Telemetry is unethical if the users didn't provide informed consent (opt-in) for it. It's not just a theoretical point - anyone who's worked in tech sector for a while should know most companies cannot be trusted to behave ethically (especially if they took VC funding). 2. There's a certain dysfunction/antipattern that's popular in tech…

Worse in a really insidious way too. Optimizing based on engagement for instance could be maxxing the amount of time people spend using a service, while minning unseen variables people care about like their emotional state while engaged. It’s sort of an inevitable thing that optimizers do to things they don’t measure, and it’s an extremely difficult problem to put everything people care about into the equation. Like…

> But last week, Facebook revealed that it had manipulated the news feeds of over half a million randomly selected users to change the number of positive and negative posts they saw. It was part of a psychological study to examine how emotions can be spread on social media.

Doing such a study would be the first step in optimizing for a good emotional state. But it (quite understandably) led to an outcry which stopped it dead in its tracks.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/30/technology/facebook-tinke...

Re: Minecraft to add telemetry

#100

Post by skeaker »

delroth wrote: post #80
hulitu wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I totally agree. Telemetry is invaluable to making software better. Can you give 1(one) example of a program which was improved by using telemetry ? And no, trashing the UI in the name of change or modernism does not count. Thank you.

We introduced some opt-in telemetry in dolphin-emu.org several years ago. I remember several times we discovered things we would likely have completely missed otherwise: - We found out by looking at the distribution of software version that we had a strong holdout on one specific revision. It turns out we had a regression in a niche feature which was very important to a sub-community of our users, and users were basi…

This is a fascinating answer that has persuaded me to your side. I recall opting out of Dolphin telemetry because I simply couldn't be bothered to check what would be sent, but seeing not only examples of what data is sent but also how it's used in such a positive way will definitely have me turning the telemetry on next time I go to use it.
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