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Are there more surviving ancient writings in Greek or Latin?

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Re: Are there more surviving ancient writings in Greek or Latin?

#91

Post by DonaldFisk »

lai-yin wrote: post #2

The part about the extinction of the Punic language made me wonder - what would it take to utterly erase an entire branch of knowledge today?

While very little of the writings of Carthaginians has survived, the language itself (Phoenician/Punic) is well understood because a very close relative, which was mutually intelligible with it, has, however, survived: Hebrew. So if anything did turn up, we'd be able to read it.

Contrast this with another ancient language: Etruscan. Although we have a number of longish texts in the language, we can't translate much of them. Etruscan has left no descendants, and Emperor Claudius's books on the language haven't survived. There is one bilingual text of more than a few words (the Pyrgi tablets). The other language is Phoenician. We can read that.

Re: Are there more surviving ancient writings in Greek or Latin?

#92

Post by DonaldFisk »

pacman2 wrote: post #12
jl6 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but that’s the Greek mythological version of the Garden of Eden story. I find the reality even more interesting. What were humans thinking about 40,000 years ago, with their modern bodies and brains?

Were they thinking? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_Consciousness_in...

Of which Richard Dawkins wrote: “It is one of those books that is either complete rubbish or a work of consummate genius, nothing in between! Probably the former, but I’m hedging my bets.”

Re: Are there more surviving ancient writings in Greek or Latin?

#93

Post by ARandomerDude »

JJMcJ wrote: post #63
wizard-beta wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily - it was literally anything. Any publication whatsoever in Europe up to about 1800 was apt to be in Latin. Science, history, geography, correspondences, laws, records of all kinds, etc.

For example, the career of the great German mathematician C. F. Gauss. His early works, written around 1800, were in Latin. By the end of his career in the 1840s, he wrote in German.

True, though I suspect this probably has more to do with the rise of German nationalism in the 1840s, including a few revolutionary unification attempts. The German language itself was a major political issue of the day.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationalism

Re: Are there more surviving ancient writings in Greek or Latin?

#94

Post by ARandomerDude »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #68
quotemstr wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, of course. I was mostly joking. That said, hasn't much of the post-classical output in Latin already been translated repeatedly? How much worthwhile stuff is left to be translated?

So much. It is surprising, I know. For instance, how about Descartes' very first book? Or Baumgarten's "Aesthetica", where he introduced the idea of "Aesthetics"? I talked to a scholar recently who said that it will probably never get translated, because there isn't the interest.

This. Even in Christian circles, many major works remain in Latin because publishers know they can't profitably commission the effort. This creates a situation in which for-profit publishers occasionally fund non-profit translation efforts to preserve the history.

For example, a shockingly small amount of John Calvin's works are translated into English. Regardless of what a person thinks of his theology, his influence on the rise of democracy in post-Reformation Europe and the Americas is staggering.

Re: Are there more surviving ancient writings in Greek or Latin?

#95

Post by ARandomerDude »

coliveira wrote: post #56
pessimizer wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Plato spoke of a golden age, now long lost, where the flaura and fuana were so plentiful that men didn't need to work. That's an example of the belief that all things were known in a golden age, and that the process of discovery is actually rediscovery of the knowledge of the elders. Common in a lot of pre-modern societies that had ancestor-worship. In old B.C.E. pre-imperial Chinese philosophy, before deductive re…

You don't need to go to old China to give an example of this phenomenon. Fundamentalist christians nowadays still have the same mindset, nothing can be true if it's not supported by their ancient texts.

> nothing can be true if it's not supported by their ancient texts

I'm probably what most people would call a fundamentalist Christian but your claim is wildly inaccurate. For example I know we're discussing this on HN even though the Bible says no such thing.

Everyone has an epistemology that includes multiple sources of knowledge. There is some form of knowledge that every person thinks is ultimately authoritative. In other words if two sources make competing claims, whom do I believe? This varies based on the credibility of the claimant and the reasons for the claim. For example, if a con-artist told you he would deposit $1M in your bank account if you give him your credentials, and an FBI agent told you the guy was a scammer, based on the facts and reputations of those involved you would probably believe the FBI agent. The greater the credibility of the source, the more confidence you have in their claims. At some point you reach a level of what you think is the ultimate foundation for what you know (even if that foundation is you).

The "fundamentalist" position is that God is the most credible being, given his infallibility and omniscience. If a person disagrees with God, no matter how fervently, my epistemology is that the person is mistaken and God is correct.

That is, however, very different from believing that the Bible is the only source of knowledge. In fact, the Bible explicitly states that there are other sources of knowledge (which common sense would also tell you), for example Psalm 19 and Romans 1.

Re: Are there more surviving ancient writings in Greek or Latin?

#96

Post by rsj_hn »

ARandomerDude wrote: post #94
dr_dshiv wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much. It is surprising, I know. For instance, how about Descartes' very first book? Or Baumgarten's "Aesthetica", where he introduced the idea of "Aesthetics"? I talked to a scholar recently who said that it will probably never get translated, because there isn't the interest.

This. Even in Christian circles, many major works remain in Latin because publishers know they can't profitably commission the effort. This creates a situation in which for-profit publishers occasionally fund non-profit translation efforts to preserve the history. For example, a shockingly small amount of John Calvin's works are translated into English. Regardless of what a person thinks of his theology, his influenc…

> For example, a shockingly small amount of John Calvin's works are translated into English.

You can find "the essential works of John Calvin" (51 volumes, in English) here: https://www.logos.com/product/145428/the-essential-works-of-...

All of John Calvin's commentaries, letters and 'The Institutes' here (109 volumes, in English): https://www.logos.com/product/5170/calvin-500-collection

Calvin's tracts and treatises (8 volumes, in English) here: https://www.logos.com/product/5165/tracts-and-treatises-of-j...

I'm curious as to what you think hasn't been translated into English.

Re: Are there more surviving ancient writings in Greek or Latin?

#97

Post by ARandomerDude »

rsj_hn wrote: post #96
ARandomerDude wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Even in Christian circles, many major works remain in Latin because publishers know they can't profitably commission the effort. This creates a situation in which for-profit publishers occasionally fund non-profit translation efforts to preserve the history. For example, a shockingly small amount of John Calvin's works are translated into English. Regardless of what a person thinks of his theology, his influenc…

> For example, a shockingly small amount of John Calvin's works are translated into English. You can find "the essential works of John Calvin" (51 volumes, in English) here: https://www.logos.com/product/145428/the-essential-works-of-... All of John Calvin's commentaries, letters and 'The Institutes' here (109 volumes, in English): https://www.logos.com/product/5170/calvin-500-collection Calvin's tracts and treatises…

Most of his sermons and letters are still not in print in English, as well as a treatise on the Trinity, off the top of my head. Granted, as you point out, a large number of his works are in English but given his influence, it's surprising how many remain inaccessible.

There was a Latin collection that contained some of these works called the Corpus Reformatorum published in the 1800s.

Re: Are there more surviving ancient writings in Greek or Latin?

#98

Post by tablespoon »

moftz wrote: post #77
School-Cotton wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, Latin was the main international lingua franca among educated people in Europe for about a millennium after it stopped being spoken natively. As such, scientific and otherwise intellectual works of all kinds were primarily written in Latin, for the same reason they’re primarily written in English today. In fact, the US, UK, and every other culturally Anglo country could sink into the ocean tomorrow and I suspect…

The lingua franca comes from the dominant culture of the time. The massive colonial empire of Britain move things from latin to English and the rise and control of the US has perpetuated English even more so. If the Anglo countries all sank into the ocean, I doubt it would be very long until Mandarin developed into the dominant language. China would be the major trading power and without the need to work with America…

> I doubt it would be very long until Mandarin developed into the dominant language.

I kinda doubt that, given its writing system.

Re: Are there more surviving ancient writings in Greek or Latin?

#99

Post by School-Cotton »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #89
Goety wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I would still say French would be dominant over Mandarin for several reasons. Technological advantages include current nuclear collaboration on the vast coast of China. China still does not have key infrastructure to self support. https://www.neimagazine.com/news/newschina-and-france-sign-s...

A big joint project between China and France does not constitute an argument for learning French in preference to learning Chinese.

Nor does it constitute an argument for learning Chinese, assuming both parties already know English.

Re: Are there more surviving ancient writings in Greek or Latin?

#100

Post by asdff »

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #39

Maybe someone on HN knows the answer to this question, which I've wondered for a while. Are there other civilizations of similar cultural sophistication to the Greeks, Romans, and Chinese whose writings have just not been passed down and so we aren't as familiar with them? Or are the ones whose work survived roughly it, even if much of their works are lost. E.g. there doesn't seem to be much surviving Persian literat…

Mesoamerican literature is rich

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_literature

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