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Hacker puts a video cam on an RC truck and saves the lives of 6 soldiers

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Re: Hacker puts a video cam on an RC truck and saves the lives of 6 soldiers

#91

Post by yummyfajitas »

DannoHung wrote: post #88
saraid216 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is a legit perspective, there is a meaningful difference in that Google can throw out their failed hardware without any real risk of having it return to haunt them, but broken toy trucks means either handing materiel to the enemy or having extra useless weight to carry around. You might be able to tweak specifics to account for this, but you also might not.

The solution is to have force redundancy and to make each individual element completely disposable (and detonatable).

(and detonatable)

No way terrorist types could misuse that one.

Re: Hacker puts a video cam on an RC truck and saves the lives of 6 soldiers

#92

Post by digikata »

stcredzero wrote: post #77
digikata wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no military historian, but there are terrible failure stories for products pushed out before they're ready to the frontlines too. Beauacracy is a waste, but some of those steps seen as wasteful in the DoD procurement process are "scar tissue" from where things went wrong either in the battlefield or, as often, protection against incapable, or worse, fraudulent contractors. You're right, my post wasn't a list of r…

some of those steps seen as wasteful in the DoD procurement process are "scar tissue" from where things went wrong either in the battlefield This is precisely part of the mechanism that causes every military to be well prepared for the previous war but unprepared for the current one. I propose greater emphasis actual feedback mechanisms based on experience in the field. These can be made to work on timescales of mont…

The path you mention exists, but not every program is fast tracked - nor should they all be. If you go too fast and mess up, soldiers can die. If you go too slow and mess up, same result.

I get frustrated too at too-slow, too-big companies running projects with billion dollar price tags resulting in no workable product, but I'm not as sure that the solutions are simple. I am sure that without constant oversight from within and without it could be much worse.

Re: Hacker puts a video cam on an RC truck and saves the lives of 6 soldiers

#93

Post by digikata »

sequoia wrote: post #76
Estragon wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm kind of wondering what would happen to an entrepreneur who started selling these kinds of devices direct to soldiers, through the mail.

For some reason I imagine this story would end in court with a multimillion dollar lawsuit. Does anyone have the knowledge to spek to Estra's question, or know of an example of this? If it's legal I'm sure people are already doing it.

FWIW, I'm skeptical that this would end in a lawsuit.

Re: Hacker puts a video cam on an RC truck and saves the lives of 6 soldiers

#94

Post by shabble »

stcredzero wrote: post #77
digikata wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no military historian, but there are terrible failure stories for products pushed out before they're ready to the frontlines too. Beauacracy is a waste, but some of those steps seen as wasteful in the DoD procurement process are "scar tissue" from where things went wrong either in the battlefield or, as often, protection against incapable, or worse, fraudulent contractors. You're right, my post wasn't a list of r…

some of those steps seen as wasteful in the DoD procurement process are "scar tissue" from where things went wrong either in the battlefield This is precisely part of the mechanism that causes every military to be well prepared for the previous war but unprepared for the current one. I propose greater emphasis actual feedback mechanisms based on experience in the field. These can be made to work on timescales of mont…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

Re: Hacker puts a video cam on an RC truck and saves the lives of 6 soldiers

#95

Post by noonespecial »

illumin8 wrote: post #5

The funny thing is that if the DoD contracted out to build these, they would end up costing over $1 million each. There are a lot of unique opportunities for startups that are willing to use off the shelf technology and package it in unique ways. Provided, of course, you don't have any ethical qualms about selling technology that might be used for good or evil.

This is true (it would probably be more like $100k but it would still seem absurd) but the DOD would control the entire supply chain and intimately know the specs and capabilities of every part.

What if the military came to depend on these and showed up at the toy store only to find the asian manufacturer discontinued that model and replaced it with a weaker one with a remote that interfered with the wireless cameras you were using?

Some of whats bought for that absurd seeming price is expertise and most importantly repeatability.

Re: Hacker puts a video cam on an RC truck and saves the lives of 6 soldiers

#96

Post by Iv »

RomP wrote: post #43
digikata wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At that point you'll have one. Now try to make it it work through extreme weather - hot, cold, pouring rain, etc. Now make it reliable to shock so you aren't fixing thing every 50 miles or so. Ok, write the reference manuals so that 18yr old mechanics how to install, maintain, replace them. You've got some sharp mechanics there, but you have a few dumb ones too. The manual will involve breaking things down to a painf…

Some of the things you're listing are must-haves (secure channel), but most are not. If increasing reliability and versatility makes the drone last 10 times longer and costs 10 times more -- it's not worth it in the long run: it's goal to trigger the first IED it can find, anyway. Even if it's not, it still would be cheaper and easier to buy 10 drones or make them modular enough so anybody with some X-Box experience…

Actually I was very surprised to discover that security was not taken into consideration in the main protocol used by drones operators. There has been stories about Iraq US drones sending or receiving some data unencrypted.

I am not allowed to comment about the specific project I have worked on, but I can tell you that a trip to the hackerspace would have resulted in a better product in that respect too.

Re: Hacker puts a video cam on an RC truck and saves the lives of 6 soldiers

#97

Post by chrisbennet »

samhoice wrote: post #72
RomP wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the things you're listing are must-haves (secure channel), but most are not. If increasing reliability and versatility makes the drone last 10 times longer and costs 10 times more -- it's not worth it in the long run: it's goal to trigger the first IED it can find, anyway. Even if it's not, it still would be cheaper and easier to buy 10 drones or make them modular enough so anybody with some X-Box experience…

Having lessened reliability is ok until the 2 that fail are the 2 you had in your truck as you're driving down a hostile road. Or if they won't work in the rain, that's ok until you have to go on patrol in the rain. Or if they won't work in harsh desert conditions... oh, wait.

While I see where that makes sense, the phrase "The perfect is the enemy of the good" comes to mind. The soldier in the field would probably rather have something like this instead of nothing at all or worse, wait (and die) while something "perfect" is developed.

On the bright side, at least they weren't forbidden from using there own solution.

Re: Hacker puts a video cam on an RC truck and saves the lives of 6 soldiers

#98

Post by digikata »

Iv wrote: post #96
RomP wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the things you're listing are must-haves (secure channel), but most are not. If increasing reliability and versatility makes the drone last 10 times longer and costs 10 times more -- it's not worth it in the long run: it's goal to trigger the first IED it can find, anyway. Even if it's not, it still would be cheaper and easier to buy 10 drones or make them modular enough so anybody with some X-Box experience…

Actually I was very surprised to discover that security was not taken into consideration in the main protocol used by drones operators. There has been stories about Iraq US drones sending or receiving some data unencrypted. I am not allowed to comment about the specific project I have worked on, but I can tell you that a trip to the hackerspace would have resulted in a better product in that respect too.

I wish I were free to comment on this one too.

Re: Hacker puts a video cam on an RC truck and saves the lives of 6 soldiers

#99

Post by DannoHung »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #91
DannoHung wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is to have force redundancy and to make each individual element completely disposable (and detonatable).

(and detonatable) No way terrorist types could misuse that one.

No, I mean if the gear can't be recovered you tell it to self-destruct.

Re: Hacker puts a video cam on an RC truck and saves the lives of 6 soldiers

#100

Post by radu_floricica »

davidhollander wrote: post #71

A response to statements such as: > it shouldn't be that damn hard to send some RC cars to Iraq to save lives Actually, efficient resource allocation is usually a NP hard problem! It's very computationally complex, and the US Department of Defense is one the largest bureaucracies in the world. From that perspective, and depending on one's expected value for bureaucratic efficiency in relation to size, one could also…

Also create opportunities for corruption at all levels of the military, instead of just a few. Plus it would open the way to fads and fashions, instead of evidence-based decisions.
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