Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#91

Post by rajin444 » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

Daishiman wrote: post #70

rajin444 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The smallpox vaccine worked (works) much better than the covid vaccine. I don't think this is an honest comparison.

The COVID vaccine is effective at preventing mass ICU occupancy. The smallpox vaccine is exceptionally effective when compared to other vaccines. Most other vaccines require 3-4 applications for reasonable immunity; same as COVID.

COVID mutates too fast and the covid vaccines do no provide sterilizing immunity. The smallpox vaccine provides sterilizing immunity, which enables eradication.

I agree the COVID vaccine is good at reducing severe cases and preventing death.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#92

Post by enragedcacti » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #9

> but vaccine hesitancy — particularly among white Republicans This sort of quip really makes me distrust NPR. White people are more vaccinated than blacks or Latinos, but the journalist couldn't help but try to throw in a dunk on their favorite bogeyman. https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/percent-of-total-p...

Out of interest I went to their source. It is a Tennessee study of unvaccinated individuals and The primary distinction between conservative white and black/hispanic people is that the former are primarily in the "unwilling" category while the latter are in the "willing but not yet ready/waiting for an appointment".

I will say that the study is way too small and not rigorous enough to use as a source for that information.

Interestingly KFF's numbers and polling tell very different stories, so I wonder if kff has bad/outdated/unrepresentative data or if pretty much every demographic has a subset that is lying about their vaccination status: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/meet-the-press/nbc-news-pol...

In that poll, white people are lower than both black and hispanic people, and the biggest predictors for low vaccination are rural, republican, and trump support. It's possible that those groups are more likely to tell the truth about vaccine hesitancy?

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#93

Post by spywaregorilla » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

sk2020 wrote: post #79

betterunix2 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccination is not a political position. Vaccines only work if a large majority of people are vaccinated and people who refuse to receive the shot are putting everyone else in danger. A basic function of a government is to protect public safety, and that is what a vaccine mandate does.

Your vaccine does not work unless someone or everyone else has one? Has this been observed with previous vaccine products?

Everyone getting vaccinated has clear benefits, and helps avoids breakouts. See mumps, measles, polio, etc.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#94

Post by albertop » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

core-utility wrote: post #30

unchocked wrote: post #11

Good. There is no better use of state power than ensuring public health. Supreme Court resolved this in 1905 w/r/t smallpox.

And where does the line for public "health" get drawn? Who draws it, the ruling party in power? Everything is health based if you want it to be.

In Australia government now controls how much alcohol people can consume in their locked down homes. They are searching all bags and things coming into the building.

That is the line now. How far it will go we will see.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#95

Post by yupper32 » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:18 PM UTC

drstewart wrote: post #66

yupper32 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just a talking point coming from people who don't want to get the vaccination. Those people who don't want to get the vaccination largely exist because of misinformation, not because of any real risk (read: very very very very minimal risk) that comes with taking the Covid vaccine. Everyone (who can) should take the covid vaccine, regardless of their antibody status.

Can you explain why a "talking point" immediately invalidates something? >A talking point, often used in the plural, is a pre-established message or formula used in the field of political communication, sales and commercial or advertising communication. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talking_point Let me ask you this: is "Everyone (who can) should take the vaccine" a message that medical organizations are communicatin…

If "talking point" is getting us tripped up here, maybe "convenient excuse spread mostly to help the vaccine hesitant continue to not get the vaccine" would be a better phrase.

I'm not an English major here. Just trying to get my point across.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#96

Post by michaelt » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:19 PM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #73

michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

Punching yourself in the face, or nanny state discussions, is more akin to something like a seat belt law. We have seat belt laws to stop the individual from hurting themselves, not because we're afraid they're going to launch out as a projectile and hurt others. But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing. If it were just about hurting yourself, then I'd agree that the discussion should be fra…

You're absolutely right - getting vaccinated protects your family, your community, and your country.

What I mean by punching yourself in the face is: Even if you don't have any family and you hate your neighbours, getting vaccinated is still in your own interests, because it stops you dying.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#97

Post by twstdsistrs84 » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:19 PM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #73

michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

Punching yourself in the face, or nanny state discussions, is more akin to something like a seat belt law. We have seat belt laws to stop the individual from hurting themselves, not because we're afraid they're going to launch out as a projectile and hurt others. But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing. If it were just about hurting yourself, then I'd agree that the discussion should be fra…

> But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing.

Ok, but the covid vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission -- which really takes the wind out of the "do it for the good of the community" sail.

Additionally, viral concentrations via min PCR cycle threshold has been found to be roughly equal between vaccinated and unvaccinated.

And finally, these mandates completely ignore natural immunity -- which has been shown in several studies to be more robust and durable than vaccinated immunity. More specifically - natural antibodies bind to more epitopes across several different proteins on the SARS-COV2 virus. Vaccine induced antibodies bind to epitopes only found on the original version of the S-protein. In my opinion, this 'fragile' immunity produced by the covid vaccines is going to exert selective pressure on the virus leading to new variants and immune escape.

tl;dr: vaccine mandates using for covid vaccines are not applicable when sterilizing immunity isn't produced.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#98

Post by version_five » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

I'm a libertarian and I think choices should be up to the individual, because it's never ok to have a political group decide for you what is good or bad. It's antithetical to western liberalism.

My rant aside, I think there are better and worse ways to infringe on people's liberty when needed. And given the way the winds are blowing, it would be much better to enforce vaccination at the federal level, i.e. compel people by law to get it. There can be exemption of course, but the point is it becomes between you and the state. The current patchwork creates all kinds of disparity, invades privacy be repeatedly making you tell others about your health and identify yourself, and burdens businesses and others with enforcement. It also lets the government avoid the ire of people who don't want a mandate, by moving the front lines of enforcement elsewhere.

I think business and local level mandates are more popular because they play on people's desire to punish the unvaccinated, instead of working positively to tackle covid.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#99

Post by AndrewBissell » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

Daishiman wrote: post #70

rajin444 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The smallpox vaccine worked (works) much better than the covid vaccine. I don't think this is an honest comparison.

The COVID vaccine is effective at preventing mass ICU occupancy. The smallpox vaccine is exceptionally effective when compared to other vaccines. Most other vaccines require 3-4 applications for reasonable immunity; same as COVID.

Don't pretend to be at all concerned about ICU capacity if you also support mass firings of nurses who won't take the vaccine, which is another of the "prongs" being rolled out by Biden today.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#100

Post by dragontamer » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

hunterb123 wrote: post #81

dragontamer wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is all FUD. Natural immunity does fine, just like the vaccine you may be reinfected but the effects will be severely diminished. Why did Manaus, Brazil run out of hospital space in a 2nd surge? Despite initial infection rates of ~75%ish ? Why was this effect then replicated in a 2nd Brazilian city of Araraquara city by a different research team? (Aka: a "2nd wave" of COVID19, despite a highly infected populati…

Either mismanagement or false reporting / fear mongering which runs rampant in covid times. I don't know how you think that translates to poor natural immunity. You would need to know the % of patients with covid of the ICUs that are overrun, whether they were previously infected, etc.

We see the blood has fewer protections through blood-donor information (fewer and fewer antibodies present in blood-donors). We then see variants evolve that are explicitly avoiding immune responses (aka: Gamma and Delta). And finally, we see these variants reinfect huge swaths of the population in practice.

Its not really that unbelievable of a story. It lines up with the science going on all around the world. Immune response wanes through some indirect measurement, variants rise, reinfections happen.

It also is within-a-magnitude of vaccine-induced immunity. So even if you get your immunity from vaccines, its seemingly waning after 8 months (Pfizer). 6 months / 8 months... that's close enough that its practically the same when it comes to these early / less rigorous studies. It seems that's how long our bodies immune response works vs this virus.

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Why do you think the virus is resurging in USA? There already was a huge surge (the 2020 summer surge and 2020 winter surge). For there to be yet another 2021 July/August surge??

Well: July 2021 was over 6 months since the last surge (December 2020/January 2021). Our collective immunities wore off. People _are_ getting reinfected.