Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agreed, however, the shelf life of a programmer is very short compared to other career paths. It all depends on your industry, of course, but once you hit 40-50, you're competing with younger developers who have more energy and require far less compensation. Hence the need to make "real money" before you hit the age ceiling.
You're forgetting one crucial problem. Younger developers may or may not have more energy, but one thing they don't have is experience. Never, ever, underestimate experience.
I am an HFT Programmer
91–100 of 246 posts
Re: I am an HFT Programmer
#92I worked for a time in finance and investment banking. Problem-wise it can be pretty interesting but it's important to distinguish between two classes of developers. 1. Traders; and 2. Non-traders. Engineers who are traders are typically called "quants" (quantitative traders) as they write software that employs trading strategies to make money, as one or more of spread trading (trading between the bid-ask spread), pr…
"The only way for an engineer to make real money is to be a quant, found a startup or join an early stage startup." This statement should be included in every CS curriculum.
I've seen lousy programmers make a lot (200k+) of money just attending stupid meetings .. and top coders struggle to keep customers happy for crappy money.
Re: I am an HFT Programmer
#93It's true, and it's somewhat discouraging. When I was in my last year in college, I applied to various types of companies, in different stages of life, plus a quant fund. In the end, while the salary/potential bonus for the fund was very enticing (despite not having graduated yet), I stuck with the middle-of-the-road tech company. (I also looked at Google and Dropbox but decided to go to FB). Google was desperate for…
Re: I am an HFT Programmer
#94This is a huge load of bullshit. 99% of the "banking programmers" are some of the worst coders in the world. A vast majority of them just babysit a Bloomberg terminal, barely understanding the supposed math they use all day. Others just babysit an Excel spreadsheet, or worse, develop whole applications in Excel then try to get a real programmer to "build it". The lower echelons are even worse and just make shitty C#…
Fast C++ is an oxymoron. Real men use C and assembly. And yes, I bootstrapped my own HFT
I would be interested in hearing your story. Would you like to share some details?
Re: I am an HFT Programmer
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
Even normal developer salaries amount to a lot of money compared to median household incomes. I'm known as the "rich one" in my family, and I haven't taken any risks at all. It's all relative, I guess.
Agreed, however, the shelf life of a programmer is very short compared to other career paths. It all depends on your industry, of course, but once you hit 40-50, you're competing with younger developers who have more energy and require far less compensation. Hence the need to make "real money" before you hit the age ceiling.
Granted life is pretty good now if you're a recent graduate of a good school. You almost have your pick of jobs. But when was that not the case?
It's true that you tend to have less commitments in your 20s. You should take advantage of that. Most people in their 20s still spend their money on crap however (cars, ski trips, eating/drinking out, etc). While that's all fine they'll wake up after 10 years and find they have nothing.
What tends to happen as you reach your 30s is you have increasingly financial commitments. You might have bought or want to buy a house. You may well be married. You might have children. All of these take your time as well as make you more risk-averse both from a stability point of view as well as having a higher minimum salary that you can pay your bills on.
But if there's one thing I've learned over the years is that most of these expenses are, well, crap. Raising children is expensive but it's also way more expensie than it needs to be, in similar ways to being single in your 20s is way more expensive than it needs to be.
That doesn't mean you have to stay at home, never buy anything and never do anything. It just means being smart about how you spend and allocate what money you do make.
I could lose my job tomorrow and not need to work for another 12 months, possibly two years if I push it. That's a deliberate choice I've made.
It also means that if I want to bootstrap a startup I can.
In my experience, most people in their 40s either:
- don't have an interest in something so risky;
- have let themselves and their knowledge get out of date;
- have priorities that preclude anything but a 9-5 job; and/or
- don't have the financial freedom to take risks.
While you may not have the energy you did 20 years ago, experience counts for a lot. We're lucky in that we work in an industry where you only need:
- working hands;
- working vision (and a very low level of vision too as I can personally attest to); and
- a working mind.
I see no reason why you can't work as a programmer until you go senile, go (literally) blind, are quadriplegic or die.
People who can code and can get shit done are (and will probably be for the foreseeable future) extremely valuable... regardless of age (IMHO). I see so many people who work in this business who actually can't code, it's astonishing.
Some might write you off if you're not a twenty-something MIT or Stanford graduate. But if you keep up to date and are willing to take risks, I see no barriers to a continued productive existence other than those you create.
Re: I am an HFT Programmer
#96This is a huge load of bullshit. 99% of the "banking programmers" are some of the worst coders in the world. A vast majority of them just babysit a Bloomberg terminal, barely understanding the supposed math they use all day. Others just babysit an Excel spreadsheet, or worse, develop whole applications in Excel then try to get a real programmer to "build it". The lower echelons are even worse and just make shitty C#…
Re: I am an HFT Programmer
#97Re: I am an HFT Programmer
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
>they get paid well, but they're also doing work of dubious value. Unless they're getting paid at a rate determined by regulations, by definition the value of their work is what their employer is willing to pay.
Value to whom ? Suppose you work for me. I pay you because your work has value to me. Congratulations: you aren't doing something no one cares about. But your work for me could be (1) finding a cure for cancer (hugely valuable to everyone if it works out), or (2) making my brand of smartphone 0.1% better than its rivals (hugely valuable to me, positive value to others but maybe not much), or (3) writing effective adv…
In the case of the labor of an employee or a contractor, the person you're working for. Value is what someone is willing to pay, or trade, or work, for something.
For example, diamonds aren't valuable because they are rare or hard to make (anymore), they're valuable because people are willing to pay large amounts of money to signal to loved ones how loved they are, to signal how rich someone is because they can spend a large amount of money on a rock, etc.
This doesn't mean that price is equal to value. How about the value of the diary of your hypothetical dead grandmother? It may be "priceless" to you while it's in your possession, but there is some absurd amount of money that someone could offer that would make you part with it ($10,000, $100,000, $1,000,000,000, etc.). This isn't its market value, however, because the price some person (a historian perhaps) would be willing to pay for it is likely quite a bit less. And there is certainly a price you'd be willing to recover it.
Take for example family photographs, I recently had a coworker bring in a computer with a dead hard drive. This hard drive had thousands of family photographs that weren't backed up. I made sure that the hard drive was really dead and not just mostly dead and let them know that taking it to a lab was their last option. The cost would likely be between $1000-$4000 and they wouldn't get a guarantee that they'd get anything. They thanked me for my time and decided not to attempt to recover the images.
To make the problem even more interesting let's look at a commons. How valuable is Wikipedia to you? Assuming that you haven't donated to it, nothing. This doesn't mean that it isn't useful to you, or that it doesn't benefit humanity as a whole, or that it is necessarily a waste of everyone's time. It's valuable to the people that run it, it's valuable to the people that donate to it, but everyone else lacks skin in the game.
You might try to calculate its value by summing the labor of all the contributors of the site (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value), but this would make it more valuable if people made it less efficient to add content to the site (perhaps requiring that people mail their edits in triplicate in approved forms obtained from the local post office on a tuesday morning).
The reason why the tragedy of the commons is a problem is because commons are frequently more valuable to everyone than they are to someone. You can't hope to solve these problems without understanding what value is.
>(3) writing effective advertisements that persuade people to by my product rather than a rival's which is actually slightly better for their needs (hugely valuable to me, negative net value to the world)
To defend people in marketing, somebody has to let people know about products and services.
> If you care about doing something that's valuable overall then being well paid is no guarantee whatsoever of that.
Right. Many people value work that benefits society as a whole, or work that satisfies their own curiosity, or work that helps their religion or political beliefs, or work that has high status in the society they live in. Due to this millions of people forego higher wages.
None of this makes people getting paid lots of money better people than people getting paid less money.
Re: I am an HFT Programmer
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe it's different in London compared to NY. There's plenty of decent makers in Finance in London. There's people who use all the best practice techniques in software development. People who wrote code you use every day.
> Maybe it's different in London compared to NY I've seen the kind of guys described in zed's first para, in Finance in London. I don't think it's different, but YMMV.
Re: I am an HFT Programmer
#100This is a huge load of bullshit. 99% of the "banking programmers" are some of the worst coders in the world. A vast majority of them just babysit a Bloomberg terminal, barely understanding the supposed math they use all day. Others just babysit an Excel spreadsheet, or worse, develop whole applications in Excel then try to get a real programmer to "build it". The lower echelons are even worse and just make shitty C#…
Fast C++ is an oxymoron. Real men use C and assembly. And yes, I bootstrapped my own HFT