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American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

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Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#91

My college had a decent-sized contingent of Bulgarian & Romanian international students. The difference in their math abilities upon entry was striking. While most of my American-born classmates struggled in discrete math, linear algebra, and vector calc, my Bulgarian friend was like "I learned this when I was 9." They were frequently tapped as TAs by the professors, because they understood the material on a level th…

While this is partly true, and a point of national pride (I'm Romanian), it's also important to realize that this is the positive end of a very unequal system. If you have the good luck of having a good teacher, and enough material conditions to focus on learning, school will leave you with quite a good array of knowledge, especially in Maths and sciences.

However, the majority of people don't have this luck, and they get seriously left behind. I don't know as much about Bulgaria, but Romania has the largest percentage of functional illiteracy in the EU - almost half of Romanian high-school children can only theoretically read (they recognize the letter symbols, but can't actually read a text and understand what it meant, at the most basic level). A good percentage of people go through the mandatory K-10 education system through cheating, corruption, and basic knowledge.

Romania is very focused on national exams, one obligatory one in 8th grade and another one in 12th grade. There was a push about 10 years ago to implement some stringent anti cheating controls (cameras in each exam room, nothing fancier or more oppressive), and the pass rate plummeted from over 95% to 50% in that one year. There were entire high schools that had had straight As (10s) the year before and where no one passed the year after. This was the level of cheating and corruption.

I will also note that the stuff about having luck with your teachers is also not an exaggeration. I attended the second best high school in the country by admission grade (there is a national exam in 8th grade, and students choose their preferred high-school in a ranked vote style, and then every student is assigned to a high-school in order of exam grade + preference). This is also a high-school in the capital, and a wealthy area. I had some really good teachers in a few things, and a few really abysmal teachers in others. Even in CS, which was the high-school's specialty, I had teachers who seemed to barely know the basics (but also others who were pretty decent).

It's also important to note that there is widespread, normalized abuse in the teaching system, especially towards children with poor grades, or who are just poor. Things like yelling, demeaning, even spanking and hair cutting (for male students with longer hair, especially) are relatively common, and still considered normal in some areas (though, thankfully, fewer and fewer).

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#92

This is the video by the daughter of the founder of the Russian School of Math. We sent our son there over the summer, he enjoyed it and all the kids were pretty advanced in the class. California seems to want to hold everyone back in the name of equity. But that will force more people into the private school system, which is exactly what we did. I don’t trust the California government to have my children’s best inte…

Oregon governor Kate Brown has signed a law that allows students to graduate without proving they can read, write or do math. The law had overwhelming Democrat support & is justified on the basis that it will benefit non-white students.

https://thepostmillennial.com/oregon-governor-signs-new-law-...

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#93
post #84

Some education systems put an emphasis on critical thinking, some on absorbing tons of information. Polish education is notable for memorization. One area where it doesn't seem to hurt is medicine. It appears Polish doctors and nurses are very much appreciated when they migrate. Perhaps critical thinking is not a useful skill in medical practice? Once upon a time I was reading an article about Polish migrants in Norw…

I’m pretty sure you’re a Pole who emigrated as self-hatred is probably the most common thing for Poles.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#94
post #34
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Romanian here, the "I learned this when I was 9" might have been a slight exaggeration so that your friend could make a point, but as an another anecdata I can say that I distinctly remember one of my first calculus classes while I was in 9th grade (I think I was 15 years old at the time) and our maths teacher trying to explain to us how real numbers are defined and, more importantly, what that definition really mean…

Do the students bring any motivation to the classroom? Like, is there a culture of "study hard and pay attention in maths and sciences, because that's how we escape poverty" or something like that? Here in New Zealand, middle class parents put a high premium on being happy and fulfilled, and most (that I've seen across several schools) don't really prime their kids for academic success by saying "this is important, w…

Depends very much on the parents. Some families put a lot of importance on studies, and others don't. Usually those from countryside or without higher education would not care.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#95

My college had a decent-sized contingent of Bulgarian & Romanian international students. The difference in their math abilities upon entry was striking. While most of my American-born classmates struggled in discrete math, linear algebra, and vector calc, my Bulgarian friend was like "I learned this when I was 9." They were frequently tapped as TAs by the professors, because they understood the material on a level th…

I am Bulgarian. I moved to the UK when I was 12. I had to join primary school halfway through Year 6 (the last year of primary school).

The level of mathematics shocked me. They were still learning factorisation, something I had learned years ago. It was a breeze.

Of course, in secondary school (ages 12-18) the content eventually caught up with me. Part of me wishes I could have somehow kept studying the Bulgarian way.

What is surprising even still is that school in Bulgaria was from 07:00 to 13:00. In the UK it's 07:00 to 15:00. You had more time to do homework in Bulgaria and more time to be a child.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#96
post #36
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since it was a communist country, everyone had the same conditions (crappy), and everyone had the same fricking clothes (only two clothing factories on the whole country), and same teachers (and no private schooling allowed), and we had the same books, and no calculators. And it is clear, if all conditions are equal, still people are not born equal. Some kids are just smarter than others, and some are just dummies, o…

Do you have data or anecdata on the effect of repeating an entire year? In many modern Western schools that'd be frowned upon as punitive and as likely to provoke a "well screw YOU!" response or ingrain "I must really be stupid" mindset.

In the Netherlands, repeating a year is common. I estimate about a quarter of kids in my year had to repeat a year. If it happened twice, you had to leave school and go to a less exacting school.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#97
I went through the Soviet/Russian school system with all the advanced topics being covered in high school as others described here. My moment of zen was on my third year in one of the top tech universities in Moscow. There were quite a few students coming from Novosibirsk University who were comfortably ahead of the curve when it came to math. When they showed their transcript ("zachetka"), they had ~3000 hours of Calculus in the first few years against our ~120... As they described it, each day after the usual roster of lectures and seminars, they would spend 4 hours in class in the evening solving math problems with a teacher. While we might have spent a few hours doing homework every now and then, it was nowhere near this. Not to mention doing it in class with a teacher who would likely also give them more challenging problems and valuable feedback. The sheer amount of time and mental effort was staggering.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#98
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sample problem for K-1 [1]: "Jane fills a bag with three types of chips. There are 3-point, 4-point and 7- point chips. Jane picks 3 chips worth 15 points. Which chips did she pick?" Sample problem for grades 5-6 [2]: "Pinocchio drank half a cup of black coffee. He then filled the cup back up with milk and drank one third of the mixture. Again he filled the cup to the top with milk, drank one sixth of the mixture and…

Those are pretty challenging problems and they also require a bit of working out. How many of these problems are students expected to solve in, say, and hour long test?

These represent classes of problems and the test checks which classes students have covered in their studies and which they slacked on.

These two are straight-forward problems, both will be allocated some basic nominal time. You either know how to solve them or you don't. Sometimes there'd be problems that are more puzzling, because they'd combine several problem classes and will take time to unfold (this is typical in math olympics). These will be allocated more time as they require thinking and searching for a solution.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#99
post #4

By about 1/4th of the way through I wanted to just know what 'russian math' looked like. By Halfway it was pretty clear they weren't going to tell me. I skimmed the last half, nothing stood out. What does "Russian Math" look like?

I have a feeling it was more about the quality of the teachers than anything else.

I moved from “Deep” Russia itself to the periphery of the USSR (Bulgaria) when I was in first grade, and my parents had the foresight to make me repeat that grade so as to help me with learning a new language.

The quality difference was astounding. In 1992 Russia by first grade I was learning english with flash cards technique, drawing human shapes, animation, perspective, and some pretty good maths. The knowledge I gained there allowed me to learn almost nothing but the language up until about 3rd grade. And it was a school in the middle of nowhere.

I think the USSR trained some very good teachers and just sent them around everywhere, places they would not have gone themselves on their own volition kinda thing.

Oh and I remember teachers where highly respected, a thing I saw slowly degrade while the country was going through the 90s reforms.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#100
post #4

By about 1/4th of the way through I wanted to just know what 'russian math' looked like. By Halfway it was pretty clear they weren't going to tell me. I skimmed the last half, nothing stood out. What does "Russian Math" look like?

Sample problem for K-1 [1]: "Jane fills a bag with three types of chips. There are 3-point, 4-point and 7- point chips. Jane picks 3 chips worth 15 points. Which chips did she pick?" Sample problem for grades 5-6 [2]: "Pinocchio drank half a cup of black coffee. He then filled the cup back up with milk and drank one third of the mixture. Again he filled the cup to the top with milk, drank one sixth of the mixture and…

I don't like the second question. Probably the kid is supposed to see the 'trick' :he drank a full cup of coffee since he didn't refill coffee and drank all. He added 1/2, 1/3 and 1/6 of a cup of milk and drank it all, so (3+2+1)/6=1. He drank the same amount of coffee and milk.

I think it is ok as a brain teaser, but there will probably be one kid in the class to see it and all the other kids feel dumb or whatever. But I don't think it teaches you anything (maybe it does, didn't study pedagogy, and while I was good at such fun questions I preferred the more structured approach in university mathematics)

Edit: this might make the kids think you need some 'magical' insights to do math and if they don't see it they are not apt for it, while the opposite might be true.

For the other questions: 2 also seems to rely on a trick, 3 looks ok, 4 is ok, 5a looks dodgy (probably just trying out numbers), 6 looks ok

About the K1 question:these are for 3 year olds? I only met one 3 year old in my life who could read, probably I am missing something here.

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