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One Bad Apple

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Re: One Bad Apple

#91
I haven’t read all the details, articles, and comments. My personal thoughts on the whole situation are the following.

If you are a parent and lose a child then you would want every possible avenue taken to find your child. You would be going mad wanting to find them. If there is a way to match photos to known missing children then I say it should be at least tried.

I equate this to Ring cameras. They are everywhere. You cannot go for a walk without showing up on dozens of cameras, which we know Amazon (god mode) and law enforcement abuse their access privileges. However, if a crime happened to you and a Ring camera captured it, then I know almost everyone would certainly want that footage reviewed. Would you ignore the Ring footage possibility just because you despise Ring cameras? Probably not.

It’s all an invasion of privacy until you’re sitting on the other side of the table where you have a vested interest in getting access to the information.

Re: One Bad Apple

#92
post #61
post #18

There are a lot of articles about Apples hadh algorithm and for me they are mostly irrelevant to the main problem. The main problem is that Apple has backdoored my device. More types of bad images or other files will be scanned since now apple does not have plausible deniablity to defend any of ghe government’x requests. In the future a false? positive that happened? to be of a political file that crept in the list c…

They could have done all that without telling you. And as long as the traffic was combined with normal traffic no one would ever notice (and in this case it would end up mixed with normal traffic since it only applies to images being uploaded to iCloud, so communication with Apples servers would be expected). What it looks like to me is that Apple is planning on releasing end-to-end encryption for iCloud. But they kn…

Sticking to the apt analogy from the article, >To reiterate: scanning your device is not a privacy risk, but copying files from your device without any notice is definitely a privacy issue.

> Think of it this way: Your landlord owns your property, but in the United States, he cannot enter any time he wants. In order to enter, the landlord must have permission, give prior notice, or have cause. Any other reason is trespassing. Moreover, if the landlord takes anything, then it's theft. Apple's license agreement says that they own the operating system, but that doesn't give them permission to search whenever they want or to take content.

This viewpoint is like thanking your landlord for warning you that they are going to enter your home and root through your private items, all in the name of some greater good. Let's not spin it as if the landlord is doing us a favor in this scenario.

Re: One Bad Apple

#93

I haven’t read all the details, articles, and comments. My personal thoughts on the whole situation are the following. If you are a parent and lose a child then you would want every possible avenue taken to find your child. You would be going mad wanting to find them. If there is a way to match photos to known missing children then I say it should be at least tried. I equate this to Ring cameras. They are everywhere.…

> It’s all an invasion of privacy until you’re sitting on the other side of the table where you have a vested interest in getting access to the information.

It is still an invasion of privacy regardless of the side on which you sit. This situation is unlike a ring camera capturing footage in a public space where individuals already have no expecation of privacy.

Re: One Bad Apple

#94
post #57

I appreciate just about everything about this post, but this part keeps getting lost in everything I see written about it: >As noted, Apple says that they will scan your Apple device for CSAM material. If they find something that they think matches, then they will send it to Apple. The problem is that you don't know which pictures will be sent to Apple. It's iCloud Photos. Apple has explicitly said it's iCloud photos…

The use of the detection algorithm is for iCloud only today.

Now that the technology is on-board the device, how many lines of codes do you think it will take to scan the full photo-roll?

Do you think that this ability will not tempt LEA, law makers, governments, to push for that ever-so-small change to the code, either for blanket monitoring (see if China is not tempted, using their own database of "illegal" content) or for targetted monitoring (some specific users, with or without valid court orders).

The main issue is that the wall has been breached: monitoring data that was otherwise only on-device is now possible with little to no change as the feature is now embedded in the OS.

You can argue we're not there yet and can trust Apple to do-the-right-thing and that the Rule of Law will protect citizen against abuse, but that's a big step into a worrying trend, and not all countries follow the Rule of Law and have checks and balances to avoid misuse. Don't forget that Apple abides by the laws of countries where it sells its devices. That means they will -forced or not- do what they are told.

Re: One Bad Apple

#95

I haven’t read all the details, articles, and comments. My personal thoughts on the whole situation are the following. If you are a parent and lose a child then you would want every possible avenue taken to find your child. You would be going mad wanting to find them. If there is a way to match photos to known missing children then I say it should be at least tried. I equate this to Ring cameras. They are everywhere.…

> If you are a parent and lose a child then you would want every possible avenue taken to find your child. You would be going mad wanting to find them. If there is a way to match photos to known missing children then I say it should be at least tried.

the problem with this argument is that you can use it to justify basically anything.

Re: One Bad Apple

#96

I haven’t read all the details, articles, and comments. My personal thoughts on the whole situation are the following. If you are a parent and lose a child then you would want every possible avenue taken to find your child. You would be going mad wanting to find them. If there is a way to match photos to known missing children then I say it should be at least tried. I equate this to Ring cameras. They are everywhere.…

And this is exactly why we have things like the fourth amendment in the US.

Re: One Bad Apple

#97

I haven’t read all the details, articles, and comments. My personal thoughts on the whole situation are the following. If you are a parent and lose a child then you would want every possible avenue taken to find your child. You would be going mad wanting to find them. If there is a way to match photos to known missing children then I say it should be at least tried. I equate this to Ring cameras. They are everywhere.…

If I lost my child, I would do anything and everything to get them back. I would shoot anyone who got in the way. This is fine because I am not the police and they won't give me guns.

Kinda unrelated to that, is the 4th amendment, which protects the rights of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures by the government.

Re: One Bad Apple

#98

I don't see many people pushing back on the child pornography laws themselves that are the cause of this. I'm stepping into a hornets nest by even bringing this up, because any criticism of the laws on the books makes one look they're a pedo, so I'll preface by saying, child pornography (filmed with actual kids) is vile and disgusting, but it is the production of it that is evil to be fought and suppressed, not the p…

Something else I haven’t heard anyone bring up: when child abusers are caught, sentences are often a joke. They often spend less time in prison than low to mid level drug offenders.

CP is rape porn. People who produce or knowingly distribute actual rape porn (of children or adults) should be going to jail for 25+ years. I would not rule out life for extreme cases that also involve other forms of abuse.

Yet as far as I know this isn’t what is being pushed for. Instead we get a dragnet to try to catch low level offenders who will probably barely see prison because sex crimes are just not punished much in our society.

Secondly… look into some of the people who have set up fake CP honey pots. These have included both vigilantes and security researchers trying to get a sense of how much CP is on Tor. Turns out most of these people are imbeciles and catching them is easy. Why don’t police do this more? Because… well… as I said sex crimes are just not a priority.

I really feel like the whole argument is in bad faith. If they really cared about the children there are so many other things that would be both easier and more effective.

Re: One Bad Apple

#99

I haven’t read all the details, articles, and comments. My personal thoughts on the whole situation are the following. If you are a parent and lose a child then you would want every possible avenue taken to find your child. You would be going mad wanting to find them. If there is a way to match photos to known missing children then I say it should be at least tried. I equate this to Ring cameras. They are everywhere.…

"It’s all an invasion of privacy until you’re sitting on the other side of the table"

This is very insightful. It's also depressing, because it's a great point for those who oppose privacy. I even find myself swayed by this reasoning.

Re: One Bad Apple

#100
> To reiterate: scanning your device is not a privacy risk, but copying files from your device without any notice is definitely a privacy issue.

I think the article is wrong about this. Or, right-but-situationally-irrelevant. As far as I can tell from Apple's statements, they're doing this only to photos which are being uploaded to iCloud Photos. So, any photo this is happening to is one that you've already asked Apple to copy to their servers.

> In this case, Apple has a very strong reason to believe they are transferring CSAM material, and they are sending it to Apple -- not NCMEC.

I also suspect this is a fuzzy area, and anything legal would depend on when they can actually be said to be certain there's illegal material involved.

Apple's process seems to be: someone has uploaded photos to iCloud and enough of their photos have tripped this system that they get a human review; if the human agrees it's CSAM, they forward it on to law enforcement. There is a chance of false positives, so the human review step seems necessary...

After all, "Apple has hooked up machine learning to automatically report you to the police for child pornograpy with no human review" would have been a much worse news week for Apple. :D

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