Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship • Hacker News Board

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#91

Post by coldtea » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:15 PM UTC

keewee7 wrote: post #82

fourthwaveska wrote: post #44

By most western standards my family teeters on the line between middle and upper middle clas. We sold all of our US property last year; and now we are shopping for 4-6 unit buildings within 100km of Barcelona to get our Golden Visas. Our goal is to get citizenship and access to the EU then renouncing my US citizenship. It isnt about money, I am juwt ashamed to have an American passport and know my tax dollars are bei…

Spain is a NATO country involved in many American wars in the past 30 years. If you oppose US wars and hegemony you should have followed Edward Snowden and moved to a country that actually oppose American influence in the world.

>Spain is a NATO country involved in many American wars in the past 30 years

Which doesn't mean much. NATO is not some alliance, it's the US calling the shots and others doing as told, or else (insert diplomatic, economic, etc. pressure).

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#92

Post by BrianOnHN » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:16 PM UTC

Good riddance. "Wealthy" people contribute capital. The government can print more money to replace them at the expense of the same "wealthy" people who most likely got "wealthy" from exploitative practices opposed to conscious capitalism.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#93

Post by roenxi » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

risaacs99 wrote: post #48

ninja3925 wrote: post #4

It is good that we have such process for people to push back against their government greed. Usually, the citizenry is at the mercy of it and can’t do anything about it. You don’t like it? Fine. You have a choice and can get out. Good safety valve. It keeps the populist governments in check.

This is classic libertarian thinking, and I used to subscribe to it, at least to some extent. The more you think about it, though, the more it doesn't hold up. It's just undeniably true that individual freedoms exist only to the extent that society allows them to. To think that you can opt out of society is fantasy. It's in everybody's best interest to make sure society works well for everyone, and that kind of think…

The observation that it is in everyone's interest for society to function is a core plank of libertarian thinking. If everyone was going to opt out then libertarianism would not work.

The core argument is that the government doesn't need to step in to fix society, because the incentives are so strong that society will sort itself out through people realising that if the ship sinks they will drown so they have to keep the water outside the boat of their own initiative.

Given that it is already in everyone's interest that the ship floats, the people loudly claiming "our enemies are trying to sink the ship!" are probably lying and should not be put in charge. However, such people infest government.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#94

Post by PragmaticPulp » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

> It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born.

This is exactly why these people are renouncing US citizenship: They’re living overseas as citizens of another country and, like anyone rich or poor, don’t want to be paying taxes to a country they aren’t living in.

It’s not exactly unfair or nefarious. If they’re no longer living in the US and they are citizens and residents of another country, surrendering US citizenship is a logical choice.

Renouncing US citizenship is a common move for this exact reason. This article just happens to have drawn an arbitrary line in the wealth of people who renounce US citizenship and made a headline out of the wealthier subset. The wealthy are also more like to have dual-citizenship but relocate to another country, so they’d be over represented in this set.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#95

Post by Aunche » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

amcoastal wrote: post #3

Its really a great system we have here --- get insanely wealthy off the backs of Americans who pay tons more for basic services and then when it's time to pay back run off and keep your change. No wonder America is doing so well.

America has one of the most progressive tax system of any country.

https://taxfoundation.org/summary-of-the-latest-federal-inco...

>The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.5 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.9 percent).

IMO, this is one of this is why the American government seems so bad at spending money. It's not their money, so there's little incentive to care if it's misappropriated.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#96

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

fourthwaveska wrote: post #31

papito wrote: post #9

From the bottom of my heart, fuck off . If you get blackmailed, abducted, squeezed or raided in any way, the U.S. will have the privilege of not caring. These tools accumulated massive wealth by corrupting the U.S. political system, gutting the IRS, and bringing their effective tax rate lower than most other citizens' - and it is still not enough. I guess it's a tall order to ask to keep your grubby paws away and not…

> From the bottom of my heart, fuck off. If you get blackmailed, abducted, squeezed or raided in any way, the U.S. will have the privilege of not caring. Guess you have never lived abroad? If you think the US doesnt care about you when you’re in country, you dont even exist when you’re out of it. Imagine being in the middle of a coup, calling up your consulate for guidance only to find out that they all left the coun…

> Imagine being in the middle of a coup, calling up your consulate for guidance only to find out that they all left the country or are hiding in their bunkers. Been through that before.

What, exactly, was your expectation? That they'd send out Navy SEALs to rescue you?

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#97

Post by bmitc » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #83

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

Deleted

They do not.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#98

Post by moonchrome » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:18 PM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #60

tartoran wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article is about wealthy people. We all know they are paying relatively no taxes or doing their best to. Yes, Americans who moved to Europe and are happily making a living there are also giving up US citizenship but end up paying taxes in 2 places or deal with a lot of hassle they’d rather not

No one's moving the Europe for the lower taxes.

There are quite a bit of places in EU with low capital gains tax and can be gorgeous to live in if you're wealthy. For example Croatia is a EU member - capital gains tax is flat 12%, and is a popular tourist destination with beautiful coast. It's not a bad deal if you're a remote freelancer - you end up paying like 20% in taxes total + something like 300€/month flat for health insurance and minimal pension contributions.

Monaco is the place if you're super rich.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#99

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:18 PM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #60

tartoran wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article is about wealthy people. We all know they are paying relatively no taxes or doing their best to. Yes, Americans who moved to Europe and are happily making a living there are also giving up US citizenship but end up paying taxes in 2 places or deal with a lot of hassle they’d rather not

No one's moving the Europe for the lower taxes.

Monaco?

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#100

Post by AYBABTME » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:20 PM UTC

Miner49er wrote: post #65

syops wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a person has no income or capital gains from the U.S. and doesn’t live in the U.S. shouldn’t they be exempt from paying U.S. taxes? Also, shouldn’t foreign financial institutions be exempt from reporting to the U.S. about financial activities of U.S. citizens when they are outside the U.S.? I think the answer to both questions ought to be yes. EDIT: I’m aware of the rules regarding income taxes for Americans based…

Wouldn't this create loopholes? A US citizen could leave the US to make foreign investments, then come back to the US and be exempt on taxes on this foreign investments while enjoying the benefits of being in the US and not paying their share of taxes.

Most countries tax worldwide income of their _residents_ (not citizens). So in your scenario, you'd end up paying tax on the foreign investments if you profit from it when you resume being a US resident. Unless you don't declare the foreign assets, which would be illegal (gotta file an FBAR each year).

There's no loophole here, a large majority of countries work this way, and OECD countries certainly do (although some have different treatments for short term residents). Usually the logic is: if you don't pay taxes in country A, you'll pay in country B anyways. And you'll pay an exit tax when you go from country A to B in many cases, so country A gets their cut.