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10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

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Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#91

Post by ceejayoz »

refurb wrote: post #87
ceejayoz wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was a crime planned for months, carried out with care, and based in ideology. Comparing it to a random act of violence is disingenuous.

You think some 16 year just randomly decided to bring an axe to school and kill someone? None of these are spontaneous.

My school had an ax in the fire equipment locker, and even if a kid's bringing a weapon from home, it's hardly comparable to a multi-month construction of a bomb followed up by a multi-location terror attack on a political party with a whole-ass manifesto playing a role.

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#92

Post by throwaway894345 »

michael1999 wrote: post #84
throwaway894345 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do I misunderstand these terms, or hasn't ethnonationalism been the norm historically and pluralism quite rare?

No. Consider France -- until Napoleon forged modern France, it contained dozens of languages and ethnicities. Then the modern world steam-rolled them into Frenchmen.

I don't think "the modern world" can be faulted. The French explicitly had a top-down campaign to forge a French national identity/ethnicity. But I take the broader point, I thought "ethnonationalism" was any kind of persecution of ethnic minorities.

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#93

Post by rvz »

tomjen3 wrote: post #51
neonnoodle wrote: post #12

Ten years on, and it's chilling to consider how much more widespread Brevik's ideology has become worldwide. Ethnonationalism has elbowed its way to a seat at the table, demanding "toleration" for itself that it would never reciprocate for pluralism.

On the contrary, I don't see any widespread nazi ideology. I see people open disagree with the left and some of its goals but that is, and I hope you agree, not the same thing.

> I don't see any widespread nazi ideology

Perhaps they have played too much Wolfenstein VR to come to that conclusion of seeing Nazis everywhere or some sort of hidden agenda of a secret Nazi invasion from space.

SlateStarCodex (A HN favourite) put it more accurately about the media (and social media) during the recent events in 2017 and still to this day:

"I also think events proved me right in saying that the media was going crazy in a particular way where they would read racism into anything..."

"...At some point you just have to admit everyone went crazy for a few years and seeing started seeing Nazis in trees and rocks and grilled cheese sandwiches and Trump was an especially tempting target."

[0] https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/mantic-monday-grading-...

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#94

Post by GoblinSlayer »

neither_color wrote: post #14
dudul wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I see the "mental gymnastics" here. Isn't it a usually accepted thing that young children have no clue? It makes "sense" (at least in the scope of Breivik's craziness) to consider that these kids were "victims" brought there by their parents or something. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant by "mental gymnastics". I think this expression usually applies when 2 contradicting /paradoxical statements are made…

He was attacking a youth camp and shot many young teens(I didn’t read every slide but one example I saw was a 14 YO girl hit four times) so I don’t see a difference. I guess I’m just shocked at seeing a weird attempt at “ethics” from someone who would do something like that.

He believes it's wrong to kill children, not teens. The age of 12 is approximately when people go from childhood to adolescence.

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#95

Post by ceejayoz »

foolinaround wrote: post #69
foreigner wrote: post #18

Weapons purchased completely legally.

Just state your point explicitly? As a thought experiment, do you think there would be so many casualities if this island was located in Texas, USA where socialists/labor party is also not very popular?

Very possibly. Even in Texas, a bunch of kids on a youth camping retreat probably aren't heavily armed and ready to do battle. The element of surprise helps, too.

For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shoo...

(it is probably a safe assumption that a Baptist church in a small town in Texas had at least a couple armed congregants)

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#96

Post by cmrdporcupine »

74d-fe6-2c6 wrote: post #89
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the existence of ethnicities is old but the concept of tying them to national borders is very young (modern era, and mostly 19th century and beyond) and the specific interpretation of ethonationalism here (ethno exclusionism within a set of borders) is even younger. I have to work right now so can't work through all the examples listed by another poster below, but will try to come to this thread later. But if you…

The concept of a territory been defended by tribe against other tribes is as old as mammals.

Even if that's the case, that's not close to the same as a "nation" or even an "ethnicity."

Example: Germanic tribes that migrated out of the north in the 1st-5th centuries AD all spoke similar languages and had similar customs but were fluidly at war with each other and rarely if at all recognized any wider "German" identity. Some allied with the Romans, some joined confederations with the Huns, some groups seemed to be mixtures of Gauls and German despite different languages, etc. etc. This didn't befuddled the Romans at all. In the same era, Greeks (Hellenes) called themselves Romani, Goths ruled over formerly Roman territories and adopted Roman practices, while having Latin speaking subjects.

Stretch that out to the modern far right in Europe, on what basis is "European" any kind of "tribe?" What exactly are us "cultural Marxists" trying to impose on this poor persecuted "European identity"?

It does not stand up to critical inspection so it has to appeal to stuff like you just said "oh it's always been this way" -- who says? Define your terms, show me how they're the same, and prove it. Because appealing to that past and then conflating with the present with it to justify some action or policy has really serious consequences for humans

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#97

Post by cannabis_sam »

neonnoodle wrote: post #12

Ten years on, and it's chilling to consider how much more widespread Brevik's ideology has become worldwide. Ethnonationalism has elbowed its way to a seat at the table, demanding "toleration" for itself that it would never reciprocate for pluralism.

[flagged]

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#98

Post by orwin »

jollybean wrote: post #42
neonnoodle wrote: post #12

Ten years on, and it's chilling to consider how much more widespread Brevik's ideology has become worldwide. Ethnonationalism has elbowed its way to a seat at the table, demanding "toleration" for itself that it would never reciprocate for pluralism.

Ethnonationalism (or at least ethnocentrism) is as old as time, and probably the 'default' mindset. Lack of any other force, especially when combined with the 'nation' part i.e. organized nation state, it might get out of hand, which is why it can come to be a problem, but nominally, it's not. It's probably a defining feature of how we organize ourselves. So the very existence of most of our nations, is a form of 'To…

Ok, so you take belgium "as a failed state", and the "Quebec factor", while ignoring, let's say... Switzerland?

> If you look at the borders of Europe and how they flop around over time, it becomes clear that the 'delineating' factor is mostly ethnicity, at least crudely.

No. I don't know why you would think that. Brittany was Gallo-Breton, and the two ethnicity almost cut the duchy in two. Two very, very different languages and ethnicity. I would know, i was born on the lingual border. Occitan was closer to Ligurian than to Paris' French, Normand was closer to London's, I would like to think that Liege was always speaking alsacian rather than French, and that Burgundy was speaking more French than the Armagnac Duchy was. The Basque ethnicity was always separated between two crowns (at least)

You know what defined the national borders during the nationnalism epidemic of the 19th century? Natural borders. And when none exist, you create artificial ones, not a all following ethnicity. Ukraine? Lithuania? Poland even? No natural borders => the borders cut with forests or swampsm not "ethnical divide" (or else eastern Europe would NOT look like this).

> Napoleon failed outside his borders whereas within France, it might have just worked for him.

Yes, and what was France looking like when he took power? How yeah, Savoy, Piedmont, Liguria are really French. As are the netherlands... It worked for him until he started to meddle into other kingdom's/Empire internal affairs.

> Greece is still Greece today after 2500 years, the borders are similar.

Yeah, no. The old Greece western borders stopped before that (linguistically at least), the northern border reached higher, as were the eastern borders. I know that Iran fancy themselve as persia successor, but let's be honest, their border follow more natural borders than the old Persian Empire.

If ethnocentrism were "as old as time", what about the Mughals? What about the Romans? What about the "King of Franc" ruling over a lot of non-Franc (a majority of non-Franc even)? And the Holy Roman empire? What about the Commonwealth of Poland? The truth is, ethnicity is a lot like language, and follow the same rules language used to do.

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#99

Post by GoblinSlayer »

rvz wrote: post #93
tomjen3 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, I don't see any widespread nazi ideology. I see people open disagree with the left and some of its goals but that is, and I hope you agree, not the same thing.

> I don't see any widespread nazi ideology Perhaps they have played too much Wolfenstein VR to come to that conclusion of seeing Nazis everywhere or some sort of hidden agenda of a secret Nazi invasion from space. SlateStarCodex (A HN favourite) put it more accurately about the media (and social media) during the recent events in 2017 and still to this day: "I also think events proved me right in saying that the medi…

Speech obesity is an inherent need of attention economy: the heavier the words the better they sink.

Re: 10 years since the Utoya massacre in Norway

#100

Post by cmrdporcupine »

foolinaround wrote: post #71

When ideologies are suppressed, they get pushed to the edges, where there is always some scum of society, who are disaffected and will latch on to it. The best way is to identify the roots behind what attracts the followers of these ideologies, address any root issues, and attack the premises behind the ideologies itself. Not talking to these incidents, but all over the world, people tend to violence when they feel t…

So what should the "system" have "heard" in this case? "I don't want Muslims in 'my' country"? What's the root issue that needs addressing here?
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