Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus • Hacker News Board

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#91

Post by sharken » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:24 AM UTC

bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

I am not at all surprised by the popularity of Orbán.

An important part is the strong resistance to migrants, which would mean a great influx of mainly Arabs with an incompatible culture and religion compared to Europe.

Look to Sweden to see how it goes when you allow too many migrants into a European country.

On the other hand there are many serious problems with Orbáns rule, e.g. trying to control the free press, not respecting the rights of LGBT.

But to many hungarians it is better to have a controlled migration than all the listed downsides.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#92

Post by hyper_dynamics » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:25 AM UTC

jsbdk wrote: post #80

dessant wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what's important is respecting human rights, not ideological affiliation, and in that sense Hungary has noticeably regressed in the past decade.

"human rights" is a liberal construct.

No it's not.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#93

Post by jakub_g » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:25 AM UTC

bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

As someone who moved countries within the EU, I started looking at things from global perspective, and what matters today is the power balance between EU, US, China. Whereas within EU most countries still look at their own interest, fueled by politicians and their 4-5 years election periods. This is really sad, because the EU is digging their own grave.

Re: your comment, it's not only on nation level. People have tendency to form groups and build their identity on "us vs them" basis. That's why you have rivalries between football clubs from different cities etc.

Anyway, language and culture/history is a powerful thing that people can't get over in us-vs-them thinking. There's also business in play which collides with politics a lot. For example Germany are fine doing business with Russia, while for Poland, Lithuania and other Russia-bordering countries, RU is #1 evil and existential threat.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#94

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:26 AM UTC

bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

[deleted]

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#95

Post by _hzrk » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:27 AM UTC

reader_mode wrote: post #75

C19is20 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a euperson i want it. And i know many more that would like the same. The bubble may be bigger than you think.

I think it doesn't matter how big the bubble is - you saw what happened with Brexit (and it got validated by EU handling of COVID crisis), now imagine what happens when the only option to leave is succession/civil war. There are independence tensions within European countries (eg. Spain/Basque, UK/Scotland). You have to be a blind idealist to think this would work. There are going to be a lot of crisis scenarios for…

What is wrong with the EU handling of COVID crisis? We have vaccinated more people than the US and there was no major breakout since summer 2020. In constrast with the UK where restrictions have been draconic.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#96

Post by sharikone » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:28 AM UTC

poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

It has actually elicited a response. Through many mechanisms now big countries in Europe have gained much more power than before, when the model was very egalitarian.

And you can look at it in a very different light if you see it as Hungary becoming a small vassal state of Germany (an autocracy helps it to stay that way, and German manufacturers want the situation to remain like this) rather than a "rogue fascist" state. Just follow the money.

If you look at things this way you expect to see a war of sphere of influence of big countries in the near future. I think the Balkans will be the next soft battlefield between German and Italian influence.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#97

Post by nix23 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:30 AM UTC

johnnycerberus wrote: post #90

nix23 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is not a state...thank god for that, and that it never happens.

But it can be a federation of states. Hopefully, that will happen.

Depends how much the states have their own freedom and power (financial marketplace, and military), remember Russia is a federation too.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#98

Post by saiya-jin » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:30 AM UTC

blocked_again wrote: post #35

reader_mode wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic India and Pakistan should also merge.

No your logic was it's not possible to have a country with so much diversity. I just showed a counter example.

You are comparing uncomparable, the population of India and EU are composed of very different people with different mindsets, expectations, opinions. Indians are generally much more docile (spent 6 months backpacking all around that place, it is really different in this regard).

Also, comparing diversity is tricky - natives from Lappland have 0 in common with say Greek or Spaniards. Same would go for india's extremes, its rather impossible to say who is more different (personally I would still say Europe, since ways of life are almost the same if you look on India east, south, north, west, very similar cuisine etc... not so much in Europe).

We have proven track of how it doesn't work here in Europe, no need to spin another set of wars to re-confirm it.

Also, India sees quite a bit of domestic terrorism in its eastern parts exactly due to mindsets like yours. Not something we like to see here in Europe.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#99

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:30 AM UTC

biscotte_ wrote: post #89

blocked_again wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India does this already. With 3x more population and probably has much more diversity and cultural differences than EU.

India and USA are often cites as examples of federations than EU should look to implement but that comparison is not valid. The US were a blank page, with roughly the same crowd starting with the same common goal and aspirations. Europe comes with 15centuries of nationlike structures and history. Latin and AngloSaxons have very different approaches on life and work (particularly visible in the “PIGS” recent controver…

[deleted]

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#100

Post by pmontra » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 9:31 AM UTC

hyper_dynamics wrote: post #88

Hokusai wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU is completely helpless against rouge states There is a point where politics depend on good intent. It does not matter if it is the EU, USA or China. If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. The main defense against this situation is that it does not work to improve citizens lives. It only benefits a small part of society and it will mak…

They should be expelled, but that's not possible. So the EU is indeed kinda helpless against member states gone rouge

I don't recommended this scenario but: the other states could join a new union and leave Hungary and possibly other states outside (the usual split into a good company and a bad one.) Lots of legal disputes but in international law the strongest party always makes the law and shrugs problems away.

BTW, is it rouge (as in French for red) or rogue?