My app just got removed with no prior warning • Hacker News Board

Re: My app just got removed with no prior warning

#91

Post by josephcsible » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 3:44 PM UTC

breakfastduck wrote: post #63

tacker2000 wrote: post #23

People need to realize that these walled garden lock ins are the worst thing ever in our industry. To be honest, I would think twice nowadays if I wanted to do invest my precious life in developing an iOS app and have my income derived from that. If the gatekeeper is unhappy, they can kill my livelihood without any recourse. Same thing is happening in the ecommerce space with Amazon: they can ban your seller account…

Ah yes, the famous walled garden of Android. What?

Not every Android phone can be rooted, and a lot of people don't root even if they can. Without rooting, there's way, way more friction every time you want to install or update an app from outside the Play Store. It's better than iOS, sure, but that's not saying much.

Re: My app just got removed with no prior warning

#92

Post by cartoonworld » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 3:46 PM UTC

pinkybanana wrote: post #25

malwarebytess wrote: post #11

> 1) Unexpectedly pulling an app with no warning and then imposing a 7-day review period is not reasonable. OK, my app only has tens of thousands of downloads. No, no. Don't apologize. Would you expect Google to remove twitter's app with no prior notice? How about a U.S. government app? Why should you expect different treatment from Google than Twitter et al.? Google has to provide a consistent and responsive experie…

> Why should you expect different treatment from Google than Twitter et al.? Well, because you aren't twitter. Expecting google to treat indie dev the same as multibillion dollar corporations would be stupid. World isn't fair place and crying after fairness is often waste of time. This kind of blog post might affect the situation and I think it makes sense to make it in polite way. However my default assumption would…

This comment, and the truth within it, causes me to think of Stallman.

Aside discoverability, usability and the messaging problem of selling libre software to Mom, proprietary software and walled gardens will just do this to people.

At this time in history there is not really a viable option to access the huge market of app stores with de facto monopolies of the app ecosystem aside from hoping some multinational corporation won't capriciously squash your vulnerable sapling beneath its crocs or birkenstock on its way to exercise some stock options.

The app developers are barely a blip on corporate radars, they don't see 10k users of an app as valuable at all--but this person sure does! Javier probably feels this as much as google, apple, etc would an antitrust suit. Probably more, as unlike them, he has not prepared a multi-million dollar legal defense.

Even though F-Droid is available and those apps are usable and often very good, individuals are basically beholden to this garbage!

Of course he doesn't expect to be treated fairly, this blog concludes that it is unreasonable to yank his side project app and that he has no recourse because of the way that the app ecosystem is. I don't know how these state of affairs can be improved, quickly, but I hope it is possible.

Re: My app just got removed with no prior warning

#93

Post by dawnerd » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 3:56 PM UTC

fasteddie wrote: post #33

rkachowski wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guarantee bad actors would remove unpermitted functionality right before the review, and put it back after. Outside of a dynamic feature flag setup, this would be trivial to detect as Google and Apple completely control the submission process.

I once used a very dumb feature flag set up to get around a rule an Apple reviewer told us were breaking, just for review period. The supposed rule violation was around for a year and no one had flagged it except for this one reviewer, and they were clearly interpreting the policy wrong. Easier to make a flag to appease then try and work up the management review chain. This wasn't malware or anything like that, but g…

Almost had to do this too. Luckily the part of the app that was in violation was just a web view and the plan was to just hide that part of the page until after it went live. And with OTA updates apps can get a surprisingly large amount around the review process. Although you risk being banned if they catch you!

Re: My app just got removed with no prior warning

#94

Post by edoceo » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 3:58 PM UTC

dyeje wrote: post #87

dsr_ wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't take legal advice from Internet lawyers; don't take business advice from your competitors. Hire somebody knowledgeable to review your privacy policy and terms of service.

Have you ever hired a lawyer to review a privacy policy / ToS? It costs thousands of dollars.

So? Lots of things cost money. It almost sounds like you're advocating for a cheap short-cut. It's bad in code, it's bad in legal dealings

Re: My app just got removed with no prior warning

#95

Post by ottermax8 » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 4:21 PM UTC

fasteddie wrote: post #33

rkachowski wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guarantee bad actors would remove unpermitted functionality right before the review, and put it back after. Outside of a dynamic feature flag setup, this would be trivial to detect as Google and Apple completely control the submission process.

I once used a very dumb feature flag set up to get around a rule an Apple reviewer told us were breaking, just for review period. The supposed rule violation was around for a year and no one had flagged it except for this one reviewer, and they were clearly interpreting the policy wrong. Easier to make a flag to appease then try and work up the management review chain. This wasn't malware or anything like that, but g…

That's so great--when you do 100 submissions, you're sure to get some really bad reviewer who is just trying to improve their metrics. We had to take out a bunch of functionality to get it approved... didn't want to spend time fighting up the chain and the upper folks don't even care.

Re: My app just got removed with no prior warning

#96

Post by jrochkind1 » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

dawnerd wrote: post #93

fasteddie wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once used a very dumb feature flag set up to get around a rule an Apple reviewer told us were breaking, just for review period. The supposed rule violation was around for a year and no one had flagged it except for this one reviewer, and they were clearly interpreting the policy wrong. Easier to make a flag to appease then try and work up the management review chain. This wasn't malware or anything like that, but g…

Almost had to do this too. Luckily the part of the app that was in violation was just a web view and the plan was to just hide that part of the page until after it went live. And with OTA updates apps can get a surprisingly large amount around the review process. Although you risk being banned if they catch you!

> And with OTA updates apps can get a surprisingly large amount around the review process.

Right, which is exactly why the OP's suggestion would not work, that Apple should always tell you in advance when they plan to do post-release review.

Re: My app just got removed with no prior warning

#97

Post by tantalor » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 4:32 PM UTC

fasteddie wrote: post #33

rkachowski wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guarantee bad actors would remove unpermitted functionality right before the review, and put it back after. Outside of a dynamic feature flag setup, this would be trivial to detect as Google and Apple completely control the submission process.

I once used a very dumb feature flag set up to get around a rule an Apple reviewer told us were breaking, just for review period. The supposed rule violation was around for a year and no one had flagged it except for this one reviewer, and they were clearly interpreting the policy wrong. Easier to make a flag to appease then try and work up the management review chain. This wasn't malware or anything like that, but g…

That's unethical.

Re: My app just got removed with no prior warning

#98

Post by adar » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 4:40 PM UTC

breakfastduck wrote: post #63

tacker2000 wrote: post #23

People need to realize that these walled garden lock ins are the worst thing ever in our industry. To be honest, I would think twice nowadays if I wanted to do invest my precious life in developing an iOS app and have my income derived from that. If the gatekeeper is unhappy, they can kill my livelihood without any recourse. Same thing is happening in the ecommerce space with Amazon: they can ban your seller account…

Ah yes, the famous walled garden of Android. What?

What else would you call the Play Store on which the vast, vast majority of Android users acquire apps? Please don't bring up F-Droid or the Amazon App Store as alternatives, that's just a joke compared to the sheer volume of app installs (and more importantly, purchases) on the Play Store.

Re: My app just got removed with no prior warning

#99

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

tantalor wrote: post #97

fasteddie wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once used a very dumb feature flag set up to get around a rule an Apple reviewer told us were breaking, just for review period. The supposed rule violation was around for a year and no one had flagged it except for this one reviewer, and they were clearly interpreting the policy wrong. Easier to make a flag to appease then try and work up the management review chain. This wasn't malware or anything like that, but g…

That's unethical.

[deleted]

Re: My app just got removed with no prior warning

#100

Post by kwdc » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

jrochkind1 wrote: post #5

> App stores should review apps at set frequencies. Developers should know the expected date for their next review so that they can prepare for unexpected consequences that require direct action. I guarantee bad actors would remove unpermitted functionality right before the review, and put it back after. There's a reason even restaurant food safety inspectors don't tell the restaurant when they're coming. But on the…

Pardon my ignorance, but doesn't Google/Apple have the ability to examine compiled code as hosted on their servers? This implies Google/Apple themselves can perform static and dynamic analysis at their leisure. There is therefore no concept of "remove just before" or otherwise a form of slight-of-hand.

Are we still operating under the illusion that Google/Apple have no capability for having suitable tooling around this? I find it difficult to believe. Especially for finding unofficial api use and similar shenanigans.