More on Vaccine Side Effects • Hacker News Board

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#91

Post by ben_w » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 9:37 AM UTC

tboyd47 wrote: post #40

ben_w wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many countries with many different jurisdictions and drug safety requirements, and not all vaccines passed all jurisdictions’ rules. Also, I’m no lawyer, but I would expect an act of negligence — as compared to “risks inherent in bringing forward new products to prevent severe cases of a virulent disease with known severe side effects in a significant minority of those not killed by it” — is already frowned…

The limits of vaccine safety pessimism go far, far beyond your estimation. GP is probably an American and referring specifically to the immunity established by the NCVIA.

If a researcher makes a novel vaccine with side effects even as tenth as bad as either long COVID or independently the death rate of COVID itself, I would expect the researchers to abandon it instead of wasting time attempting to start human trials.

I am aware many people simply don’t believe in the health impacts of COVID/long COVID, but that’s over optimism about the disease rather than pessimism[0] about the treatment.

[0] I also ought to have clarified: maximum rational pessimism, not conspiracy theories.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#92

Post by cma » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

AndrewBissell wrote: post #90

cma wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It mutates at a much lower rate than flu. And despite that, flu shots sill make sense even with animal resevoirs, holdouts, etc.

Do they completely eliminate influenza the way that it's being claimed the Covid vaccines would, if only uptake were high enough?

Flu has about one base pair RNA mutation between each viral generation (cell to cell), coronavirus's with rna the length of the current one aren't possible without an error correction mechanism, and as a result of having that they have about only one base pair mutation between each host transmission (person to person).

I don't know the answer to your question, but it seems much harder with flu due to more rapid variation.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#93

Post by PeterisP » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

olah_1 wrote: post #22

I'm hearing a lot of people say that even if you get the vaccine, you can still get covid. Is that true?

Yes, people who get the vaccine can get covid, but the illness is heavily mitigated and death rate is reduced to almost zero. Anecdotally (and I'm not a doctor) it seems that with the vaccine, immune system reacts to the initial infection in your nose and prevents it from spreading to your lungs and blood vessels (which causes a lot of damage there e.g. for some relatives who got covid last year), but you still may get some local symptoms around nose and (AFAIK) can infect others because of that.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#94

Post by PeterisP » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 6:44 PM UTC

oceanplexian wrote: post #59

CarelessExpert wrote: post #36

I wish I could get skeptics to believe this kind of evidence. I've had deeply frustrating conversations that went along the lines o Them: The vaccines are more dangerous than the virus! Me: No they aren't. There's very few cases of severe side effects. Blood clots with AZ are about the worst we've seen, though GBS is always a small risk with vaccinations. Them: No, the vaccines are super dangerous. People have gotten…

> Them: The vaccines are more dangerous than the virus! Children under age 14 are between 6.8 and 17 times less likely to die of Covid-19 than the seasonal flu or pneumonia. And here we are, trying to preemptively vaccinate them against a disease that they are not particularly susceptible to. I'm not sure if the vaccine is more dangerous but if it were, I doubt it would be making headlines. The argument could be made…

Not dying from Covid does not imply not being susceptible to the disease - it has a sufficiently large proportion of bad long term effects so that we would want to prevent everyone, including children, from getting sick with Covid even they aren't likely to die from it.

Death rate is not the only measure, and it's not the proper measure in this case.

E.g. a recent Norwegian study (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01433-3) had roughly half of young (16-30) people with mild covid (non-hospitalized) still showing harmful effects six months afterwards; so the covid risks/consequences are much worse than any currently known vaccine side-effects even for mild covid in young people. Heck, we're even seeing long-term problems for some people for whom the initial infection was asymptomatic - this is a nasty, risky disease to get, not comparable to diseases that just put you out of work for some time and you're fine if it doesn't kill you.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#95

Post by briantakita » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 7:54 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #15

briantakita wrote: post #2

Now that the vaccine injuries can no longer be hidden from the public, the industry seeks to capture the discussion to retain their influence on public opinion. The core of the argument is risk assessment based on the statistics that they provided. The problem is, if they were lying about existence vaccine injuries, what is to stop them from lying about the statistics? A better solution to restore a proper feedback m…

There are many countries with many different jurisdictions and drug safety requirements, and not all vaccines passed all jurisdictions’ rules. Also, I’m no lawyer, but I would expect an act of negligence — as compared to “risks inherent in bringing forward new products to prevent severe cases of a virulent disease with known severe side effects in a significant minority of those not killed by it” — is already frowned…

> I don’t believe anyone is seriously suggesting D Trump or B Johnson

I wasn't only talking about D Trump or B Johnson. Both are complicit for spreading the bioweapon. I'm talking about Fauci & the other bioweapon pushers who are committing genocide.

The factor that is being ignored is that vaccine injuries are being reclassified as Covid or a coincidence unrelated to the vaccine. Tobacco Science had a similar technique.

Re: More on Vaccine Side Effects

#96

Post by phtrivier » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 10:25 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #45

djrogers wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The cognitive dissonance is not particularly pleasant It's not unexpected though, is it? Certain personality types, and to a large extent certain cultures, reflexively push back when forced to do something, even if it's a Good Idea or something they'd do or have already done anyway. While that reflex may have downsides (like the current situation with vaccines), from a societal standpoint, it's a strong check again…

Pushing back on a good idea just because it's compulsory is not logical. It's like pushing back on seat belt laws. Seat belts are almost universally considered a good idea. They save lives of the wearer who doesn't want to turn into a hamburger during a crash, and protects the people around them who have one less projectile to worry about. There are almost no down-sides to seat belt use. Yet, I know people (even in m…

> It seems like just a childish and immature reason to not do something when the upside overwhelms the downside.

You pretty much nail the issue: when it's 100% obvious that the upside of the policy (hopefully much less hospitalizations and death amound old people) overwhelms the downside (unhopefully more adverse side effects amoung the much younger general population), then the decision will be rational.

At the moment, I claim it's not entirely irrationnal (although clearly pessimistic) to at least feel a bit uneasy.