Earlier quoted context omitted.
Being new or not is not the crucial point. What matters is that it's in the interest of the society at large that as many people as possible are vaccinated quickly. This might present certain incentives to treat possible side effects in a political way, basically downplaying them. I'm not saying this is what is happening now, but it has definitely happened in the past. When you read the history of Pandemrix[0][1], yo…
> Being new or not is not the crucial point. When we're talking about "we don't know the long term effects", it's certainly a crucial point, because it shows that we can have a good idea of the long term effects already. I agree there's likely to be huge political pressure to downplay side effects, however the scale of this rollout and the attention it's getting worldwide mean that it's going to be very unlikely such…
Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people
91–100 of 248 posts
Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
I´m less worried by vaccine safety than the vaccine strategy. You don´t normally vaccinate in an ongoing pandemic, usually you vaccinate when a virus is not in circulation. By vaccinating in this way, in an already infected population, you add selection pressure that creates an advantage for more contagious vaccine-resistant strains. This is the real danger in my opinion, but of course side effects of this new vaccin…
> There´s one scientist that predicted this development perfectly, Geert Vanden Bosschen. He´s the only one so far that has made correct predictions in this pandemic. He said that mass-vaccinating during ongoing pandemic will result in rising numbers of cases among fully vaccinated people a couple of months after vaccination, No, its not one scientist who got that right; this was widely flagged that as a likely outco…
Then this term has no meaning at all
Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
> There have been hundreds of millions of vaccinations. People have been smoking for a very long time without noticing any apparent problem. Vioxx is estimated to have caused a 100000 additional heart attacks in US alone, but no one noticed. This is why we do systematic research. Point is "There have been millions of vaccines administrated", is not a proof for safety. That is not even considering the censorship of Va…
> Point is "There have been millions of vaccines administrated", is not a proof for safety. No, but with a larger population, any adverse effects are likely to be noticed.
With time. Not every problem shows up immediately.
I'm vaccinated but I respect some people who decided against it.
My logic is easy enough to explain: the virus have bigger known side effects than the vaccine and I have personally no reason to belive that there won't be even more and bigger unknown unknowns with the virus than with the vaccine.
Not blindly trusting governments, media and big pharma however doesn't sound crazy to me. After all the worst crimes and crimes against humanity haven't been done by catholic inquisitors or the armed neighbor next door but by governments, and typically not in active war but in steady state after occupation or even typically by the country people belong to.
As for media: how anyone here can trust anyone of them blindly is beyond me. I actively support some of them but I always try to ask myself what really happened.
Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people
#94The amount of unsubstantiated and scientifically unproven or even completely unstudied claims in this thread is truly staggering. These mRNA vaccines are safe for children? How on earth would you know that if the vaccines have only been studied on a handful of healthy kids for a couple of months. Does nobody understand the amount of time needed to do this kind of study properly and thoroughly? I'd also love some scie…
Plus they do not get that new vaccines (I am not referring to vaccines using the same technology as the previous ones, I thought that was obvious) usually take 10-15 years (!) to develop. How long did it take to develop this one with a tech that has not yet been used on humans? Months?
Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Neither the “modern activist left” nor the “alt-right” are political movements, they’re more like religious movements centred on a new mode of identity. Their “political” project is merely that their identities be respected. While all political and other ideological movements share a certain degree of the character of religious movements, the idea that either for the “modern activist left” or the “alt-right” the po…
Christians of every era have their political goals too. And of course, claimed to own peace, equality and justice. And there is no doubt a political core to each identity banner 'BLM'. The question is whether the mass movement and the institutional and cultural mass are even 'aware of' let alone 'coordinating for' these political ambitions. Clearly they are not. The culture of these projects ARE these projects and th…
Christianity has been fairly expressly political for most of its history post-Constantine, and the divisions between different Christian subgroups have often turned more on the political divisions than any notional theological divides.
> The question is whether the mass movement and the institutional and cultural mass are even ‘aware of’ let alone ‘coordinating for’ these political ambitions.
And the answer is, quite clearly, that yes, they are.
> Contrast this with union activity, the temperance movement, civil rights era – etx.
And…what? I’m rather deeply familiar with all of those — while I’m currently working in technology, this is actually the domain that I studied deeply. The division you are drawing is absolutely without any substance whatsoever.
> This ‘identity-fist politics’ is not a politics; its a religious awakening for a new era of identity.
That is no more true than it was of the rise of labor unionism or the civil rights movements, which had an equally “religious” (and quite often overtly religious, as well) character…and an equal focus of political objectives.
The dichotomy you are trying to draw is bogus.
> You will no doubt find genuine politics going on, and evangelists like Colbert appearing to champion them – but this isnt a political awakening. It isnt the 20s or 60s.
Well, sure, if I were comparing the modern BLM movement, for instance, to the Civil Rights movement, I would compare it more to the mid-1950s than the 1960s. But that’s not a difference of degree of political nature of the movement, but degree of political leverage that comes from successful mobilization around a broad concept that brings the power to not merely have a variety of competing political demands within a movement subordinate to the broad problem statement, but actually be in a position to have the leverage to be in a position to implement them.
M4BL itself fairly explicitly acknowledges this (without the historical comparison): “Our movement and Black communities are not currently in a position to set agendas to scale, control the institutions that affect our lives, or create mechanisms to mitigate harm. This assessment should not be interpreted as a failure of our social movements, but it does expose a critical gap. We have created a popular strategy to guide us through the next five years; it is rooted in transformative goals that can impact the millions of Black people looking for direction and leadership in this moment. Chiefly, Black governance and ultimately positioning our communities to set agendas sits at the heart of M4BL Project 2024: Black Power Rising.” [https://m4bl.org/black-power-rising/]
> They are there to demand respect for their newly minted identities.
The idea that black identity is a novel development of the recent activist movement is amusing, but ludicrously false; even the broad outline of the substantive political demands aren’t, mostly, new. All that is new is the sense of urgency for political and institutional change change.
Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people
#96The amount of unsubstantiated and scientifically unproven or even completely unstudied claims in this thread is truly staggering. These mRNA vaccines are safe for children? How on earth would you know that if the vaccines have only been studied on a handful of healthy kids for a couple of months. Does nobody understand the amount of time needed to do this kind of study properly and thoroughly? I'd also love some scie…
"Truly staggering" is 4 million dead people and maybe 61 million more who are dealing with "long-Covid" symptoms. The quotes you cited are just people being considerate of others. Sometimes doing the right thing doesn't need—or hasn't time—to be scientifically proven.
I am saying this because of such statements:
> From a societal standpoint, he said people who skip the vaccine could compromise the safety of others.
> I hear everyone saying deciding to get vaccinated is an individual choice, but the calculus in that choice is twofold — one is to vaccinate yourself and the other is protect others. I think we have a responsibility to protect our communities.
It is absolutely disgusting to appeal to emotions and shame to make me have something injected into me that has not been extensively studied and of what we have literally no clue with regarding to its long-term effects[1] especially given that I have an immunologic autoimmune disorder.
In any case, what happens to those who cannot get the vaccine passport due to not being able to get the vaccine due to health reasons? Nobody seems to talk about this, or at least I am not informed on this.
[1] On top of that, recent evidence seems to be piling up about their serious adverse effects that are coming to light now. I am expecting more to come.
Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people
#97Anyone who remembers the discrimination against people with HIV (which still exists) is obviously cautious here. WHO is against discrimination based on covid vaccine passports. I suspect because they deal with disease based discrimination all the time. So you can be one of those people screaming at school meetings to kick out the kid with HIV in the 80's or take a step back. Perhaps it is ok to discriminate, but it's…
The discrimination against people with AIDS was based on irrational fear of getting AIDS by touching or interacting with them. The discrimination against non-vaxxed people is based on the fact they are non-vaxxed and potential sources of risk. It's a little bit like discriminating against those who don't have a drivers license who want to drive a car i.e. reasonable grounds for discriminating. Obviously, it's more co…
Poor people can be thought of a being more risky to be around, because they have low standard of living, can't afford prompt health care and so on, so there are chances that they might be carriers of contagious diseases..
So you can argue that being around poor people is riskier than being around rich people. Do you want to discriminate against them based on that?
No, if you don't want to be around poor people, you are free to do that. But you should not be able to mandate that poor people must not show up in community places.
>It's a little bit like discriminating against those who don't have a drivers license who want to drive a car i.e. reasonable grounds for discriminating.
Driving a car is not a fundamental right. Freedom is.
Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people
#98The amount of unsubstantiated and scientifically unproven or even completely unstudied claims in this thread is truly staggering. These mRNA vaccines are safe for children? How on earth would you know that if the vaccines have only been studied on a handful of healthy kids for a couple of months. Does nobody understand the amount of time needed to do this kind of study properly and thoroughly? I'd also love some scie…
The stats I can find are here - https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas...
AFAICT they don't give a lot to work with, thought the 18-54 crowd do now make a large proportion of hospital intake than earlier in the pandemic.
The ONS - https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthan...
Report that "The proportion of deaths involving COVID-19 has been highest in those aged 75 years and over throughout the pandemic, however, this proportion has been lower since the start of January 2021. This likely reflects the impact of vaccinations."
And we have the independent reporting that hospitalisations are now mostly among the under-45 and unvaccinated groups, and that as a result there is less pressure on the intensive wards - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-hospital-adm...
So I would say the claim that "most people getting into hospitals now with severe Covid are young and unvaccinated" is probably overstated.
Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people
#99The amount of unsubstantiated and scientifically unproven or even completely unstudied claims in this thread is truly staggering. These mRNA vaccines are safe for children? How on earth would you know that if the vaccines have only been studied on a handful of healthy kids for a couple of months. Does nobody understand the amount of time needed to do this kind of study properly and thoroughly? I'd also love some scie…
> Does nobody understand the amount of time needed to do this kind of study properly and thoroughly? Plus they do not get that new vaccines (I am not referring to vaccines using the same technology as the previous ones, I thought that was obvious) usually take 10-15 years (!) to develop. How long did it take to develop this one with a tech that has not yet been used on humans? Months?
This is outdated info, vaccines don't typically take that long any more, and there was a bit of a head-start here due to the work on SARS and MERS.
> How long did it take to develop this one with a tech that has not yet been used on humans?
Which tech are you talking about? And which vaccine? J&J and AZ, for instance, are more 'traditional' and based on adenovirus.
Re: Some states push to ban “discrimination” against unvaccinated people
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
Firstly, vaccines aren't perfect -- they significantly improve your chances of not catching COVID, and having less serious problems. It is better if (almost) everyone gets the vaccine, which will reduce cases of COVID. Secondly, I'm getting the COVID vaccine not because they believe that there is a high risk of getting serious COVID myself, but to help others -- some at-risk people can't get the vaccine at all, and i…
> Secondly, I'm getting the COVID vaccine not because they believe that there is a high risk of getting serious COVID myself, but to help others -- some at-risk people can't get the vaccine at all, and immune-suppresed people are still at significant risk post-vaccine (although still lower risk than without). People not getting the vaccine who are able are being incredibly selfish. They are exercising the opposite of…