Why My Father Hated India • Hacker News Board

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#91

Post by kgthegreat » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 3:48 PM UTC

dimmuborgir wrote: post #28

qasar wrote: post #15

Being a Pakistani (and Punjabi) American myself, I do not agree with some of the views the author puts forward. First, Pakistanis do define themselves primarily as 'non-Indians'. However, the view that Pakistan has somehow carved out a new identity is the past 60 years is false. 5,000 years of shared heredity, language, customs and political history don't shake off that easily. Even Pakistanis and their relationship…

1. You seem to be one of those few liberal/secular Pakistanis living abroad. A vast majority of Pakistanis, in the attempt to justify the existence of their country, try everything to distance themselves from India, Indian culture and Indian history. 2. Agreed that there was mass migration both ways. But consider these things. Islam is the fastest growing religion in India and Muslims make up ~15% of Indian populatio…

> Ajim Premji, an Indian software mogul, not some oil sheikh

Well, Wipro(Western India Vegetable Products Limited) did start out as manufacturing vegetable fats and oil among other things. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wipro#History

Does that count as an oil business?

I kid. :)

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#92

Post by kgthegreat » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 3:51 PM UTC

spiffworks wrote: post #90

deepGem wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't agree more. However, for Pakistan and it's people, hatred towards India is a way of life. That's their inspiration, that's what they live up to. They possibly don't have any economic, social or technical goals to look up to. In such a scenario they naturally turns to religion and religious leaders feed this hatred mantra. Hence hatred becomes their living breath. Of course, this is all hearsay and I haven't…

I am 4 short of 500 karma, so I can't give you a downvote - instead, I make this comment. I'm an Indian, and I find it very hard to believe that an entire nation unequivocally hates another country. Firstly, there are plenty of educated, curious and free-thinking Pakistanis who bear no such hatred toward India - just read the blogs in the Dawn website. Second, among those who aren't educated nearly well enough, I ima…

I echo spiffworks.

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#93

Post by bluedanieru » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 3:57 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #65

ido wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the difference? I suspect that in the particular example you gave it's not really about the great-great grandfather's eviction, but rather that's just a personal thing to relate their general grudge and opposition of Israel to. I suspect that if you were a native American living in shitty conditions in some reservation you would also have harbored much more grudge against these (now ancient) injustices than if yo…

Want to make sure I'm clear on this: I'm not saying that different people don't have a legitimate reason to be upset. If you're living in a former communist state in shitty conditions because the Soviets destroyed your country, sure. If you're living in poverty in some third-world country because your elected leaders like playing the "big man" in politics and killed all your family? Sure. There are lots of great reas…

What about when the strategy of the aggressors is explicitly to hold on for long enough that they can use exactly this argument to keep what they've appropriated from their victims?

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#94

Post by protomyth » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 4:09 PM UTC

ido wrote: post #63

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #60

One of the things that consistently puzzle me is how different cultures handle change. Over the past 150 years, the world has seen all kinds of terrible wars, killing hundreds of millions of people and causing all sorts of hatred and ill will. Some of these cultures get up, dust themselves off, and go on -- sometimes achieving greatness. Other cultures, sometimes with far less injustice done (if you can measure these…

Why the difference? I suspect that in the particular example you gave it's not really about the great-great grandfather's eviction, but rather that's just a personal thing to relate their general grudge and opposition of Israel to. I suspect that if you were a native American living in shitty conditions in some reservation you would also have harbored much more grudge against these (now ancient) injustices than if yo…

True, the injustices committed against Native Americans are within the lifetime of the current generation. Look at the history of AIM and incidents that occurred in SD and the governments ignoring of current problem with reservations on the Mexican border. Heck, a court settlement on land use fees that didn't get paid (thanks Department of Interior) is just now circulating.

Some cultures still live by the stories of their elders. The education includes all the old stories. Now add a government that tried to destroy all native languages and traditions, move unprepared members to cities (90% suicide rate). Then add a rediscovering of the old history and attempts to pull themselves back up and find what it means to be in this new world. Some tribes did better, some did worse.

I suspect if a culture was based on the passing of stories from the former generation to the new, continuity breakage problems will be large. The USA isn't really that way, but some cultures inside it are. Add to that some of the rhymes we teach kids that made no sense to the parents of the now "properly" schooled children ("Jack and Jill went UP the hill to fetch a pale of water" doesn't inspire confidence you are teaching proper survival skills to a kid).

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#95

Post by scarmig » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 4:42 PM UTC

I'm torn about this. India is a much more pluralistic society, and Pakistan is a failed state. But one of the points made early on in the article makes it seem as if the Partition was entirely Pakistan's idea, and the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of people who died were all innocent Hindus being slaughtered at the hands of murderous Muslims. "But violence erupted, and it quickly became clear that in the new homeland for India's Muslims, there would be no place for its non-Muslim communities. Pakistan and India came into being at the cost of a million lives and the largest migration in history." Which is far from the reality; it was a clusterfuck all around, and communal violence was the rule of the day on both sides of the partition line.

It wasn't just Muslims in the 30s who called for two separate states. Many Hindus did too. It's true, the most prominent Hindu in the struggle (Gandhi) wanted a single state and tried to (in theory, at least) accommodate the large Muslim minority. For those efforts he was assassinated by a religious extremist.

Of course, you hear religious extremist and you might assume it was some Muslim who thought Gandhi was too effective a voice for unity. To the contrary, it was a Hindu nationalist who thought Gandhi was a sellout to the Muslims.

This strain of Hindu nationalism that endorses the use of violence has appeared again and again. As recently as 2002 a riot occurred in which a Hindu mob murdered around a thousand Muslims.

All this isn't to say the Muslims on the subcontinent are all paragons of virtue and liberalism. They aren't. But the story the author tells is just a pleasant story, meant to appeal to the baser instincts of Wall Street Journal readers. Maybe more than that, it's a story meant to appeal to India's own self conception, where it's as pure as snow and it's those dastardly Pakistanis who've made everything terrible.

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#96

Post by deepGem » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 5:02 PM UTC

spiffworks wrote: post #90

deepGem wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't agree more. However, for Pakistan and it's people, hatred towards India is a way of life. That's their inspiration, that's what they live up to. They possibly don't have any economic, social or technical goals to look up to. In such a scenario they naturally turns to religion and religious leaders feed this hatred mantra. Hence hatred becomes their living breath. Of course, this is all hearsay and I haven't…

I am 4 short of 500 karma, so I can't give you a downvote - instead, I make this comment. I'm an Indian, and I find it very hard to believe that an entire nation unequivocally hates another country. Firstly, there are plenty of educated, curious and free-thinking Pakistanis who bear no such hatred toward India - just read the blogs in the Dawn website. Second, among those who aren't educated nearly well enough, I ima…

Well, to put things into perspective, a couple of years back I asked a pakistani cab driver if this 'anti India' sentiment is prevalent in Pakistan and he gave an unequivocal yes. He belongs to the free-thinking tribe. What I've said here is based on his anecdotes and that's why I said it's hearsay.

"Second, among those who aren't educated nearly well enough, I imagine that the preoccupation with day-to-day survival is far more important to them than the hatred that they are told they should feel toward a remote enemy" - For a majority of such people, day to dy survival is nothing but breathing and showing hatred towards India. How else does militancy grow and survive ? India is right next door to Pakistan, nothing remote about that.

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#97

Post by ajays » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 5:03 PM UTC

Zarar wrote: post #84

ajays wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree strongly with the assertion that Indian Muslims have suffered under "majority" rule. First of all: 3 of the first 11 presidents in India were Muslim. Muslims continue to do well in many spheres of life: all of the top Bollywood actors are Muslim. At one time, the richest Indian was a Muslim (he's come down a few notches because of the Ambani brothers), and he rose up through entrepr…

The President in India is a figurehead. No real power. How many PMs have been Muslim? Chief ministers? Riiigh. > top Bollywood actors are Muslim How is this an indication of how good Muslims are? This is like saying most athletes in the US are black, so African Americans are doing great in America. > "some animosity towards Muslims" Selective memory here.

"> "some animosity towards Muslims"

Selective memory here."

You can believe whatever you want to believe, and nothing I can say will probably change your mind, because that's the world view that was drilled into you since birth. But let me give you some more examples:

- One of the most popular shrines in my state (Rajasthan) is a Muslim shrine, that of Khwaja Sahib in Ajmer. And yet the vast majority of the visitors there are Hindu, who come to seek the blessings of a long-departed Muslim saint.

- My father was born in a tiny village. There is only 1 place of worship: the shrine of a Muslim saint. Half the village is Hindu; the other half is Muslim. But both pray in that same 1-room shrine (not at the same time, though), in their own ways. The Muslims place a "chadar" (thin fabric sheets); the Hindus burn incense and place flowers.

- In the town where my father grew up, the biggest temple and the biggest mosque share a common building wall (they are back-to-back).

And finally: every Pakistani I've met who visited India for a length of time, came away impressed at how open and free the society was. Take that for what it's worth.

As for the Bollywood actors: Bollywood is a popularity contest (unlike athletics, which is objective). It is the people who decide who's a "popular" actor, and not the actor himself. So your comparison with African-American athletes is specious.

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#98

Post by ajays » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 5:09 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #60

One of the things that consistently puzzle me is how different cultures handle change. Over the past 150 years, the world has seen all kinds of terrible wars, killing hundreds of millions of people and causing all sorts of hatred and ill will. Some of these cultures get up, dust themselves off, and go on -- sometimes achieving greatness. Other cultures, sometimes with far less injustice done (if you can measure these…

"Why the difference?"

That's an interesting question.

My view is: cultures which are quick to forget the past find it easy to move on. Cultures which cling to their history, find it harder to forgive-and-forget.

Expanding on that: you have a limited amount of bandwidth in terms of attention. If your gaze is on the past, it's much harder to move forward; sort-of like it's hard to drive a car forward by looking at the rear-view mirror. On the other hand, if you force your gaze to the future, it is much easier to move forward and keep moving forward.

As someone said, "forgiveness is giving up all hope of a better past, for some hope of a better future".

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#99

Post by ajays » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 5:29 PM UTC

known wrote: post #42

During Indo-Pak partition in 1947 the agreement is that all Muslim majority regions should be merged with Pakistan and all Hindu majority regions should be merged with India. India betrayed by annexing Muslim majority Kashmir and Hyderabad. UNSC passed multiple resolutions since 1948 advising India, Pakistan & China to give Independence to Kashmir, Tibet & Aksai Chin. Obsession with Kashmir is burning rest of the Ind…

"Obsession with Kashmir is burning rest of the India."

LOL. Nice try. It is Pakistan who is obsessed with Kashmir. The founder of Pakistan, M A Jinnah, wanted to be buried in Kashmir. Every time there's talk of peace between India and Pakistan, the Pakistani government brings up Kashmir.

As far as I know, the only "burning" issues about Kashmir that the rest of India has are:

1. Why aren't there more airline flights to Kashmir?

2. Why can't I buy land and invest there?

Re: Why My Father Hated India

#100

Post by alizaki » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 6:11 PM UTC

spiffworks wrote: post #90

deepGem wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't agree more. However, for Pakistan and it's people, hatred towards India is a way of life. That's their inspiration, that's what they live up to. They possibly don't have any economic, social or technical goals to look up to. In such a scenario they naturally turns to religion and religious leaders feed this hatred mantra. Hence hatred becomes their living breath. Of course, this is all hearsay and I haven't…

I am 4 short of 500 karma, so I can't give you a downvote - instead, I make this comment. I'm an Indian, and I find it very hard to believe that an entire nation unequivocally hates another country. Firstly, there are plenty of educated, curious and free-thinking Pakistanis who bear no such hatred toward India - just read the blogs in the Dawn website. Second, among those who aren't educated nearly well enough, I ima…

hear hear