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Disproportionate amount of bad online behaviour stems from psychological issues

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Re: Disproportionate amount of bad online behaviour stems from psychological issues

#91
post #77

[flagged]

Just because you can't identify what's going wrong to make someone's car have unresponsive steering (the etiology ), doesn't mean you can't precisely identify the car as having unresponsive steering (the symptoms .) Psychology is just fine at recognizing symptoms (and complexes of symptoms that go together, a.k.a. "syndromes") — and also very good at treating symptoms/syndromes, such that they go away. Often, an unde…

> Just because you can't identify what's going wrong to make someone's car have unresponsive steering (the etiology), doesn't mean you can't precisely identify the car as having unresponsive steering (the symptoms.)

Except in this case there is a (vague) diagnosis - something is wrong with the car's computer (psychological issues).

> Psychology is just fine at recognizing symptoms (and complexes of symptoms that go together, a.k.a. "syndromes")

You don't need psychology to recognise symptoms. Unless you're saying psychology has it's own set of symptoms and it's own terminology - which is just a truism.

> and also very good at treating symptoms/syndromes, such that they go away.

Very debatable, and very provably false for most of psychology's existence.

> Often, an understanding of the etiology isn't involved,

How often?

> but also isn't needed, because it's the symptoms/syndrome that are the problem, and the underlying pathology is otherwise benign.

So,the symptoms are a problem, but the causes of the symptoms are not? How could you claim that the 'underlying pathology is benign' without even knowing what it is? Imagine if this level of rigour was applied to cancer - 'here take these sedatives and painkillers to get rid of your symptoms... don't worry the causes are totally benign'. It's absurd.

> There're very few psychological diseases that have an organic origin, where treating the symptoms but not the disease will lead to the disease progressing and killing you.

Except you really have no idea how many 'psychological diseases' could be progressing and/or affecting you while you mask the symptoms. How do you know such a disease isn't present and progressing, if, as you said, you aren't even able to identify the disease if it existed.

Re: Disproportionate amount of bad online behaviour stems from psychological issues

#92

I think there's some truth to this, but the trans community is a really awkward group to try to fit into your argument. As a trans person, I think there's a lot of toxicity to the online trans community, and there's certainly more prevalent mental illness (not surprising when you deal with frequent harassment, discrimination, being disowned by family). But trans people act like that because they feel like they're con…

Many online forums are incredibly toxic, or infested with a few regulars that get off always being negative and bullying other people.

The only thing that works with bullies, is ignoring them.

Trying to find reasons, psychological reasons, childhood traumas or gender identity issues, seems to be a way to focus on the behaviour and drama, instead of moving on.

Re: Disproportionate amount of bad online behaviour stems from psychological issues

#93

>About 70% of DID patients are also diagnosed with BPD, and the two conditions are often considered part of the same spectrum. >I’m certainly not saying that all trans people have personality disorders or that being trans is a mental illness. A little bit of whiplash on this one. Despite the sentence or two claiming what the author is purportedly not doing, the rest of the article seems to indicate otherwise. If you…

To say there is no issues with irrational behavior in the LGBT community online would be criminal dishonesty. This is not a personal indictment against trans people or LGBT people as a whole, who have existed before Twitter, before Tumblr, and before Live Journal. The author, IMO, should not have to jump through Olympic hoops in order to distance themselves from the transphobic conclusion being pushed on them. They said that wasn't their intent, and the article doesn't appear to draw that conclusion. That really ought to be the end of it.

This is exactly one of the problems with modern internet discourse. And I know someone is reading this comment wondering if I'm "one of the good ones". This mindset is, in itself, toxic and irrational. While bad intent matters, the absense of evidence of bad intent should be good enough ground to stand on.

Re: Disproportionate amount of bad online behaviour stems from psychological issues

#94
Nothing has changed since Jerry Pournelle wrote 35 years ago when discussing online forums:

>I noticed something: most of the irritation came from a handful of people, sometimes only one or two. If I could only ignore them, the computer conferences were still valuable. Alas, it's not always easy to do.

This is what killed Usenet,[1] which 40 years ago offered much of the virtues of Reddit in decentralized form. The network's design has several flaws, most importantly no way for any central authority to completely delete posts (admins in moderated groups can only approve posts), since back in the late 1970s Usenet's designers expected that everyone with the werewithal to participate online would meet a minimum standard of behavior. Usenet has always had a spam problem, but as usage of the network declined as the rest of the Internet grew, spam's relative proportion of the overall traffic grew.

That said, there are server- and client-side anti-spam tools of varying effectiveness. A related but bigger problem for Usenet is people of the type this post discusses, those with actual mental illness; think "50 year olds with undiagnosed autism". Usenet is such a niche network nowadays that there has to be meaningful motivation to participate, and if the motivation is not a sincere interest in the subject it's, in my experience, going to be people with very troubled personal lives which their online behavior reflects. Again, as overall traffic declined, their relative contribution and visibility grew. This, not spam, is what has mostly killed Usenet.

[1] I am talking about traditional non-binary Usenet here

Re: Disproportionate amount of bad online behaviour stems from psychological issues

#95
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, your critique has even less substantiation than the article, and therefore it would be even sillier to draw conclusions from it...

That's only really a fair criticism if I had written an entire article about why this article is bad. Of course a comment about an article will have less substance than an article, that doesn't excuse this article from failing to meet the higher bar that ought to exist for an article.

No, I disagree. Your critique is shallow even for it's relative prominence. The article literally opens with a counterpoint that you shouldn't generally use this as an excuse. What you said in your comment acts almost as perfect critique for itself: it sounds right, but it has zero substance. Why should anyone value a critique that says almost zero actual things about the article and instead draws a general conclusion that sounds like it came from purely reading the headline?

Re: Disproportionate amount of bad online behaviour stems from psychological issues

#96
post #77

[flagged]

Just because you can't identify what's going wrong to make someone's car have unresponsive steering (the etiology ), doesn't mean you can't precisely identify the car as having unresponsive steering (the symptoms .) Psychology is just fine at recognizing symptoms (and complexes of symptoms that go together, a.k.a. "syndromes") — and also very good at treating symptoms/syndromes, such that they go away. Often, an unde…

>And those diseases get treated carefully and separately, with workflows that get you referred on any sign of such diseases to a neurologist.

No they don't. Are they supposed to? Yes. But, at least in the US, things just don't go as smoothly as they should with regards to this because our healthcare system is incomprehensibly worthless.

Re: Disproportionate amount of bad online behaviour stems from psychological issues

#97
post #94

Nothing has changed since Jerry Pournelle wrote 35 years ago when discussing online forums: >I noticed something: most of the irritation came from a handful of people, sometimes only one or two. If I could only ignore them, the computer conferences were still valuable. Alas, it's not always easy to do. This is what killed Usenet,[1] which 40 years ago offered much of the virtues of Reddit in decentralized form. The n…

> completely delete posts

This could be done by sending special "cancel" messages; it was then up to individual Usenet servers to figure out whether to honor these cancel requests, through unspecified criteria. The feature was somewhat hidden away in some Usenet clients to discourage pointless abuse, but it was there.

> A related but bigger problem for Usenet is people of the type this post discusses, those with actual mental illness; think "50 year olds with undiagnosed autism".

IME, these people were mostly entertaining as opposed to genuinely problematic. With killfiles being in common use and 'plonking' being discussed routinely as the standard way of dealing with annoyances, users were meaningfully incented to always be on their best behavior as judged by other forum denizens.

Re: Disproportionate amount of bad online behaviour stems from psychological issues

#98
How fast can an algorithm be put together to find evidence of mental health issues via social media posts and then trigger a waterfall of rights removals?

It could be easy to argue that society may be better off without those folks having rights.

Flagged as mental - - loose free speech - blocked from posting on networks, email capabilities removed via isps, library and cell phone companies. - Flagged so can not purchase firearms - soldiers may now be sent to watch over you in your place or residence/work - things you have said in the past and things you know can be studied - search history, alexa/assistant stuff - you can not hide what you know. - You could wait for a jury trial but never be able to see your accuser, it's a bot written by a very good professor/doctor - a jury of your 'peers' would be people who have never been red-flagged as problematic social media posters. - civil trials would be auto-lost because the bot would know you are bad. - would it be cruel punishment to be cut off from all things digital? no dating, friends, family, food orders, rides..

It seems you can slay the bill of rights pretty quickly simply using a digital footprint.

I read a submarine article today pushing for the expansion of background checks for rights that did not include a bunch of 'other side info' that should be discussed.. it can be easy for something to be right and be used for the wrong reasons or in the wrong way.

I've also seen news where 'they' are asking social media companies to hand over info to try to prevent offline violence as one solution to things -

at what scale does this become weaponized mass destruction? a thousand people? ten thousand?

Of course people will lose their right to vote, maybe parenting rights and all sorts of others.

All from a twitter rant.

This is actually where we are right now I guess.

The goldwater rule mentioned in the article may need to be codified into national law to prevent these kinds of things from running amok.

Re: Disproportionate amount of bad online behaviour stems from psychological issues

#99
post #25

I"m glad to see this point made: > I’m not saying that all online bad behaviour is because of mental health issues or personality disorders: lots of people are just dickheads, and there’s no need to pathologise them. One of the important lessons I took away from a milestone book on abuse, "Why Does He Do That?" is that people really want to excuse harmful behaviors as illness. When often, repeated bad behavior happen…

I’d like to second “Why Does He Do That?”. Pointing out that abusive husbands often only break their wives’ stuff was a real eye opener for me in examining other people who harm others or lash out and then claim that they weren’t in control. If they don’t ever harm their own things or lash out at themselves then they’re not as out of control as they claim…

It's an incredible book, one of the most astute things I've ever read. And the patterns apply widely. I've found it very useful in diagnosing bad bosses.

Once my boss's boss fired my boss and suddenly took over managing me. After my first meeting with him, where a nominal 30-minute chat turned into 90 minutes of berating, I walked out wondering what the hell happened. I grabbed my copy of "Why Does He Do That?" and quickly found him described as abuser subtype "Mr Right".

It was a huge relief just to be able to put the head-spinning experience in perspective. And it let me really prepare for the rest of my (short) tenure there.

Re: Disproportionate amount of bad online behaviour stems from psychological issues

#100
post #15

I don't buy it. I think there is simple statistical/neurological explanation. Part 1: We are exposed to much more information and interaction that we have evolved for. Our brains have very biased/impractical approach to understanding the world: if you hear about something happening many times in large number then it automatically gives large weight to it and treats it as normal/prevalent/dangerous etc. This is also w…

I never made the connection to part 2 in the abstract before, that makes total sense. If you're walking down the street and see someone with two noses, you're going to notice, not the 20 other "normal" people you passed at the same time. Why wouldn't the same carry over to reading text or watching videos?
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