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Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

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Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#91

Post by Tempest1981 »

chadlavi wrote: post #79
Tempest1981 wrote: post #76

What's the recommended way to move a window that has no remaining title bar? (Honest question, not specific to Safari.) Or am I supposed to only use full-screen windows now?

the entire top bar area can be grabbed to drag the window around. Just click and hold anywhere that isn't a button or tab (including between and just below the tabs).

Ok, but the entire top row is now 90% buttons, tabs, and address-bar. Leaving me to struggle with the trackpad to position the mouse on a tiny sliver of border. Is there a keyboard modifier for move-mode?

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#92

Post by willyt »

defaultname wrote: post #42
tambourine_man wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> …yet they're presented as if they're objective truths. Readability is objective. It can be measured. They keep bending themselves backwards to get out of a problem they inflicted upon themselves. A web browser should be readable first.

Someone's casual opinion about "readability" is not objective. It is the very definition of subjective. I mean, if you've been on HN at all you've seen massive debates about fonts, colors, contrast, and so on, where people have profoundly different opinions about readability. Run a study and then talk. Otherwise it's just subjective observations. Further, we're talking about page theme spreading to the chrome of the…

Off topic. By the way I think you meant ‘throw away’ not ‘tosser’ which is British slang insult meaning masturbator. It’s basically interchangeable with ‘wanker’.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#93

Post by bovine3dom »

threeseed wrote: post #30

> Two things any user, no matter their tech-savviness, has needed in a browser. A wide Address bar to see exactly where they are, which webpage it’s loaded, the whole URL This is clearly wrong and brings the judgement of the author into question. People care that they are on "Facebook", "Google", "Youtube". They are not remembering that a stupid cat video belongs to URL: ?v=X2KsttcwC04

It's especially jarring combined with the next point:

"A proper Tab bar, with as much horizontal space as possible, to be able to open a lot of tabs and read at least a small part of their titles."

Which suggests ignorance of vertical tabs.

I'm wondering if the author hasn't spent much time with the long tail of tech-savvy users. The emphasis added to "any" is unfortunate.

A fair chunk of Tridactyl users hide the address bar; I find I very rarely need to know that information.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#94

Post by mark_l_watson »

Tempest1981 wrote: post #52
geerlingguy wrote: post #8

The new tab/address bar thing could be the reason I switch back away from Safari after using it as my main browser for a few years due to its energy efficiency compared to Firefox and Chrome. What UI designer thought taking away more space for the tab bar was a good idea? Does that person even use a web browser?

They're optimizing for a user with a 13" display, who never opens more than 5 tabs, and rarely switches pages.

They are. They are optimizing for end users not developers. This UI change must be driving people who keep many tabs open nuts (I am not one of these people, I like a tidy environment with only a few tabs open that support my current activity).

Maybe Apple has decided to nudge users in the direction of Marie Kondo; if a tab does not spark joy get rid of it.

For me, whenever I switch tasks or activities, I usually quit out of safari and restart it. I like to concentrate on a single activity and not flit around trying to do many things at once. Maybe Apple is trying to healthier use of devices, as in providing Screen Time usage reports.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#95

Post by [deleted] »

nlitened wrote: post #75
alanbernstein wrote: post #35

Why do browser updates keep fucking with the basic interface design? None of these changes are ever necessary. If designers need to justify their jobs, fine. They should design the interface layout with modular components that can be entirely customized by the user. IMO no user should ever be forced to use designs that are the product of meaningless fads in the design world.

From what I understand, the question is similar to “why do developers keep inventing new frameworks and new programming languages?” Maybe developers are justifying their jobs. Maybe younger developers are excited about ditching the old crufty frameworks and languages, and exploring something new. Maybe every 10 years they reinvent the old wheels, and older developers are grumpy that the change was not needed in the f…

[deleted]

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#96

Post by jaredcwhite »

I don't have macOS 15 beta yet, but I'm running the Safari Technology Preview now on Big Sur which has most (all?) of the new UI changes.

I love pretty much everything about it. It looks gorgeous. Tab Groups are incredible. The "address bar is in the tab" concept does take some getting used to and that's likely the area they'll tweak the most over the next few months. But overall, huge step forward in my book. Can't wait to get it on my iPad as well.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#97

Post by daniel_reetz »

reflectiv wrote: post #82
rubyist5eva wrote: post #74

I vehemently disagree that vertical space used is negligible. Due to standard aspect ratios, the vertical space of the display is at a premium. 1920*1080 means you have 840 less vertical pixels than horizontal - it makes a lot of sense to me to try to reclaim some of that space for actual content instead of widgets.

This is basically what I tell people when they ask me why I put my start menu and task bar on the left side of the screen.

Wow. I hadn't thought of it this way, and I even go as far as using a second monitor in portrait mode.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#98

Post by nixpulvis »

This post makes a lot of good points, which I agree with strongly. However:

> In other words, what a browser needs is horizontal breathing room, instead we have Apple doing things backwards

I disagree with this in general. Which I'm sure is the general opinion of browser developers. We often add extra whitespace to the horizontal margin to assist reading.

I think the issue is that we are so used to toolbars on the top of the window, we don't know how to squish it all in there.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#99

Post by michelb »

PeterisP wrote: post #69
throayobviousl wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adguard is 99% the same, and free, and on iOS.

Is it free? I'm looking at the Mac download now and it says that it's a 14-day trial with a monthly subscription afterwards, and I'm not entirely happy with relying on a subscription-based service.

It is not. But you can buy a cheap lifetime family account for Adguard on stacksocial for $20/$29. (not affiliated, but extremely happy user, been using it for years)

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#100

Post by mapgrep »

wwalexander wrote: post #34
nailer wrote: post #9

I’ve said this before on HN, but as a reminder the following are all verifiable facts: there is no dedicated macOS team anymore, Apple market iPads as a superior alternative to a laptop, and macOS as a percentage of revenue has over a long period dwindled in favour of iOS (with a few minor blips along the way). A reasonable conclusion is that macOS isn’t apple’s priority. Meanwhile with WSL and Terminal Microsoft is…

The MacPorts project has existed for 7 years longer than Homebrew, and is a much more sane experience similar to FreeBSD ports. In fact, Jordan Hubbard, the co-founder of FreeBSD and the original author of FreeBSD ports, was involved in the MacPorts project (along with other Apple employees). I’m always baffled that Homebrew is seen as the standard macOS package manager. MacPorts has existed for many more years. It b…

Macports is great and better than homebrew. But it’s an add on, with no (official) support from Apple. Apt is first party, WSL is first party. Debian and Microsoft won’t make breaking changes intentionally that impact those systems. This happens regularly with homebrew and Apple. (Macports having a more independent universe in /opt and being less vulnerable to breakage is partly why I prefer it. Although it still takes a dependency on Xcode cli tools last I looked.)
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