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Apology

felleisen.org

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Re: Apology

#91

Post by encryptluks2 »

shkkmo wrote: post #76
jtbayly wrote: post #17

Summary of several HN replies: “Yeah, yeah, whatever. Saying you’re sorry doesn’t cut it. You need to pay for it before we will accept your apology.” Hence, cancel culture. Edit: There’s no need to therefor assume the dude is totally changed based on one apology, but good grief people. The lesson I’m learning here is, “Never apologize. It will do no good and will simply drag the situation out longer.”

The main things lacking are an acknowledgement of the pattern of bullying and a commitment to change. Suffering is not mandatory, though personally I would be very pained to learn I had this sort of impact on someone.

And people will one day walk all over you because they'll be like... All I gotta do is say he made me feel bad and I can get whatever I want from him.

Re: Apology

#92

Post by admash »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #72
admash wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Six parts to a real apology: Expression of regret. "I am truly sorry." - Check. Explanation of what went wrong. "I must have directed angry words at you, who clearly had nothing to do with how the day had gone." - This is weaselly. "I must have...", not "I did". Acknowledgment of responsibility. " I clearly forget that I am the oldest and most experienced—and I should act this way in a post-mortem conversation." - We…

Request for forgiveness. - Nothing here either. Well, I personally think asking for forgiveness is manipulative and shitty behavior. An apology should be about doing right by someone you wronged, not closing with "And last but not least: What's in it for me?!" If they forgive you, coolios. Though it might take them more than five minutes just like it took apparently months for this apology to happen, so they don't ne…

The request for forgiveness is indicative of the desire to restore the relationship, as the other steps can be fulfilled in the absence of that desire.

The capacity of such a request to be manipulative is dependent on first, the sincerity of the desire, and second, on the degree to which the injured party feels compelled to forgive. We do a disservice in the extent that we inculcate an expectation that a request for forgiveness must be granted, as coerced or compelled forgiveness is not meaningful as it does not represent a restoration of the relationship that was damaged.

Re: Apology

#93

Post by encryptluks2 »

threatofrain wrote: post #80
LAC-Tech wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really think people need to learn to push back, and talk plainly. This could have easily been a blog called "that time Felleisen was being a cunt and I told him to go fuck himself" and been 1/4 the length.

Matthew Butterick said he pushed back, and that members of the Racket core team simply asked him to move on.

Which he should have obviously rather than creating Internet drama over he said she said BS. The least he could have done was provide actual evidence.

Re: Apology

#94

Post by gautamcgoel »

Why is this flagged?? It seems very relevant to the HN community. You can't allow the criticism post to stay up and attract hundreds of comments and then flag the apology post.

Re: Apology

#95

Post by yawaramin »

chronogram wrote: post #44
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #3

Context: Why I no longer contribute to Racket . https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27531508

So both just needed to talk to each other? No idea why they have to go through HN proxies.

They're not 'going through HN proxies', people are posting their writings on HN.

Re: Apology

#96

Post by DoreenMichele »

admash wrote: post #92
DoreenMichele wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Request for forgiveness. - Nothing here either. Well, I personally think asking for forgiveness is manipulative and shitty behavior. An apology should be about doing right by someone you wronged, not closing with "And last but not least: What's in it for me?!" If they forgive you, coolios. Though it might take them more than five minutes just like it took apparently months for this apology to happen, so they don't ne…

The request for forgiveness is indicative of the desire to restore the relationship, as the other steps can be fulfilled in the absence of that desire. The capacity of such a request to be manipulative is dependent on first, the sincerity of the desire, and second, on the degree to which the injured party feels compelled to forgive. We do a disservice in the extent that we inculcate an expectation that a request for…

Maybe in a private apology between two people, that works. In a public apology, it's typically performative BS that puts the person on the spot and imposes on them to find some socially acceptable response rather than giving them room to sort their feelings and draw their own conclusions.

I think it also depends on the severity of the offense. I think if someone murdered someone beloved by the person to whom they are apologizing or raped someone or ruined their career, it would also be gauche to impose and ask forgiveness.

Forgiveness is a gift. I don't think it is appropriate to demand a gift, especially if you have done someone egregious harm.

Re: Apology

#97

Post by LAC-Tech »

nyokodo wrote: post #75
aeturnum wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you expect people to do things they don't feel comfortable doing, you will repeatedly be disappointed. If you are depending on coworkers to go outside their comfort zone, you will lose coworkers (and probably feel they are undependable). Even if you are right and this person is "too sensitive" in some way, they were also an important contributor who has left a project where they no longer felt comfortable. No one…

> No one owes it to any of us to "put up" with how we treat them. No, however we do owe it to ourselves to learn better how to push back on difficult people. It’s a form of self defense because difficult people, or people having a bad day and lashing out, are not going away.

Exactly.

It's kind of like defensive driving. No I shouldn't have to take all these precautions because others should be following the road rules... but very often they don't. If you're in a crash and you're "in the right", you're still in a crash (as my last concussion can attest to...).

Likewise if someone is being a prick to you, sometimes you've just gotta be the bigger prick right back. No you shouldn't have to be, people should always be nice and respectful... but they're not. Most people back off, and if they don't - you've learned the valuable lesson that the person is beyond reason and you can wash your hands of it right then and there.

Re: Apology

#98

Post by shkkmo »

encryptluks2 wrote: post #91
shkkmo wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main things lacking are an acknowledgement of the pattern of bullying and a commitment to change. Suffering is not mandatory, though personally I would be very pained to learn I had this sort of impact on someone.

And people will one day walk all over you because they'll be like... All I gotta do is say he made me feel bad and I can get whatever I want from him.

Empathy != Weakness

Empathy != Stupidity

Empathy != Gullibility

Re: Apology

#99

Post by howolduis »

ashton314 wrote: post #25

A culture that holds individuals accountable must also be forgiving of human foibles—especially with sincere apologies. It’s refreshing to see two adults acting like it: Matthew limited his criticism to what was relevant, and Matthias responded promptly, politely, and apologetically. Both stances take humility and wisdom.

he never responded to what mattered to Matthew though. He responded to one specific instance and not the overall problem.

Re: Apology

#100

Post by admash »

neolog wrote: post #84
wpietri wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What more can a person do? Just off the top of my head: He could have addressed the full substance of the blog post, which was a pattern of "inten­tional, person­al­ized abuse and bullying" with "inci­dents were numerous, happening over a period of years". He could have used this incident to reflect on his broader behavior not just toward this one person but more generally. He could have talked the steps he was takin…

Good answer. Though "ask for forgiveness" seems like a specific cultural/quasireligious thing that not everybody assigns meaning to.

A request for forgiveness indicates that the speaker desires a restoration of the relationship that was damaged. One can have regret ones actions, take responsibility for them, repair any damage, take preventative measures for the future, and still not express any desire to go back to having a good relationship with the person. A request for forgiveness speaks to the motivation of the speaker -- whether it is an interest in the well-being of the harmed party, or merely self-preservation as an individual.
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