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I will never not talk about my depression

annaschueth.com

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Re: I will never not talk about my depression

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're already convinced the world is as you see it, there's no point having a discussion. The reality is that the world is a _really_ complex place, and one narrative simply doesn't cover everything, we're not all the same, not all companies are the same, not all societies/groups/cities/nations are the same. I'm aware that women are disadvantaged in some cases, maybe even in companies that put a lot of effort int…

The OP said: In my opinion, this attitude she's portraying is a dangerous attitude to have. This victimhood seems core to her identity. I'm not trying to shame the condition, I'm trying to say that the condition shouldn't become some core part of your identity. So if you are a woman, it's not okay to say "My gender is an obstacle to my career success and it's literally crazy making." And if you do the more socially a…

I have seen a lot of your comments and articles over the past few months. I don't presume to put myself in your shoes, but my wife works in software engineering, and I work with several other women or wives of friends in the field. They have all had normal experiences, much like mine, with very few instances of anything being different for them because they are women.

I'm providing these anecdotes because you are providing your anecdotes and I figured it might make a discussion. As I said before, I have read your medium posts and your posts to this forum, and it seems that you are always fighting a battle that doesn't always exist (see your comment above that was flagged), but I feel like you are using the 'dismissal' of people viewing your arguments as irrelevant to the conversation as proof that the battle is happening and you're losing.

I don't understand why you might be starving or not making a living unless you are unemployable or have some type of issue that prevents you from performing at a normal level, as I have not known anyone in tech who could not earn a living unless they were struggling with something that prevented them from being able to work properly.

These are my anecdotes and they aren't facts or truths, I am just showing that the experience I have seen of women in tech does not intersect with your experiences, in a way that makes your points very foreign to me and I'm sure to others who don't share those experiences. Perhaps you are also in an 'experience bubble', and the world as you see it does not always conform to the pattern.

Re: I will never not talk about my depression

#92

I've quit a job because I was going through bad depression before and I didn't think I could do a good job. I even asked for part time work, so I understand where she's coming from, but.. In my opinion, this attitude she's portraying is a dangerous attitude to have. This victimhood seems core to her identity. I'm not trying to shame the condition, I'm trying to say that the condition shouldn't become some core part o…

I couldn't agree more. It was also a red flag when she said that she wanted to normalize her depression. Depression, like any other mental illness, should be destigmatized but not normalized. Through out the entire post she outlined exactly why it should not be normalized. It's a debilitating disorder that should not be left untreated. I think to try and normalize it would leave the impression that severe depression…

On the topic of destigmatization, I recommend this Robert Sapolsky lecture (on the neurobiology of depression) to everyone to understand just how physical and systemic depression is: https://youtu.be/NOAgplgTxfc.

For understanding how lifestyle changes can help treat depression, I recommend this: https://youtu.be/drv3BP0Fdi8. He contradicts the author on the point of exercise—it is one of the most potent medicines (though hard to administer to yourself when you’re depressed).

Reflecting on my own (extensive) experiences with depression and its co-conspirators, I think there are two deep fears that inhibit seeking or sticking with treatment:

1. What happens if I don’t get better? Then I’m hopeless.

2. What happens if I do get better (and it’s not enough, or I ruin my progress with a relapse)?

I don’t have a definitive answer to either, but reasonable responses include: trying and failing feels better than languishing/surrendering (not trying is the only thing that’s likely hopeless), it is (or should be) OK to make nonlinear progress in managing chronic illness (depression or otherwise), and the universe/existence is at once magnificent and meaningless so just try to relax and enjoy the ride with your fellow creatures.

Re: I will never not talk about my depression

#93
post #34

> although the Covid-19 pandemic definitely hasn’t helped If anything, people who have experienced depression before would be more capable and resilient when dealing with the pandemic restrictions. Because they're used to dealing with negativity. I know at least that was the case with me and some friends of mine who are also affected.

Also, there can be some peace in knowing the whole world is shit down, and everyone is sitting at home surfing the web, for those who struggle with lonelyness.

Re: I will never not talk about my depression

#94
post #68
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I deal with depression. If I could choose between a four-month vacation and not being depressed, I would take not being depressed. I wouldn't even have to think about it. It's like looking at someone who's sick with a debilitating illness and saying "Wow, I sure wish I could just lie around in bed all day." No, t0mbstone, you don't. All the things you're imagining you'd do with that time—you can't really do them when…

I think this is an uncharitable response. There is nothing in this comment that implies the person posting it is not depressed. I think there is a very fair point being made about the privilege of having the possibility of a four month vacation to deal with mental health issues. For many people, a four month break from one's responsibilities has a strong likihood of resulting in homelessness and/or permanent harm to…

> There is nothing in this comment that implies the person posting it is not depressed.

Well there is, the wording itself: ".. I was depressed".

I was.

Re: I will never not talk about my depression

#95

I've noticed it's very common to swap 'sadness' and 'depression' in american english. In brazilian portuguese we have an abreviation for "depressão" which is "deprê". Depression is the illness and "deprê" is slang for "sad" and they do not mix. It seems to me by equating both the american english is making it harder for people to realize the difference (which is tremendous).

The hard part for me is trying to figure out if "I was depressed" means "I had depression" or "I was experiencing sadness".

Re: I will never not talk about my depression

#96
post #87

The thing is, I'm pretty sure 15 to 30% of the population experience depression. Severity varies, but it's difficult for psychiatry to draw a line between melancholy and depression. I'm pretty certain there are depressed people who are somehow functional and have unhealthy ways to cope and are able to go through it. But it doesn't mean that people who are functional can give lessons to those who are not. Talking abou…

That's pretty much me. I have a few friends that have severe depression, some with suicide attempts, some that ruminate a lot at night and have their minds go to scary places. For me I just keep putting on pounds and sometimes I don't sleep at all for a night, but I can usually function "normally". I've had a few bad experiences with psychologist when I was younger which makes me a bit sceptict of them and I don't like opening up to other people. I should probably try some medication but I don't know if I have it in me.

Re: I will never not talk about my depression

#97
Ok, there's a lot to unpack here. The thing that people are saying about clinging to an identity has truth to it and it can hold you back.

However this is the way I look at it and interpret it. Depression is often an invisible illness. There are physical invisible illness too. Depression is a disability just like any other. It is very possible to a form of chronic treatment resistant depression that lasts your whole life. There is nothing dangerous about "normalizing" the fact that you can have a mental illness that will never go away. My 20s were awful because people who didn't know me were constantly trying to tell me this was a phase or I would "get over it". I didn't. Once I learned to embrace that and not listen to those people I started recovering further. However it still never went away, but I never expect it to go away. It is what it is, it's a pain sometimes, just like having a physical disability is, there are more steps to take, and more things you have to watch for but if you have some support and educate yourself you find ways to navigate it just the way someone with a physical disability does. As you get older you find more areas in life that are not for you, or you need more help in, and so on, and it gets better with age to some extent because of having more of these experiences to draw from and being secure about what your needs are and sticking up for them. It can be lonely as a lot of people try to tell you something else but if you know certain environments lead to hospitalization for you, you shut that out and stop engaging with that crap anymore.

So as someone with chronic TRD I look at what she's saying like this. When you're in "recovery" (I kind of hate that term with mental illness but it is what it is) your environment is very, very important to you. Let's forget the psych part of it now. Is someone with a physical mobility disability going to thrive if they're in a 6th floor apartment with no elevator that's not ADA compliant? No. No question. The disability is relevant to that situation because it's not a good fit for them and will contribute to worsening symptoms. If someone is physically in a wheelchair or physically has a cane or whatever someone may step in and be like, hey, yeah this apartment isn't ADA compliant, let's find you something else, whatever. But with invisible disabilities you don't have anything to go off of.

Now let's go back to that same analogy with someone with depression. People you surround yourself with, again, your environment, can heavily influence how this disorder plays out. Just because someone is "nice" and well meaning, it doesn't mean they are safe. Let me say that again. Someone can be the nicest person in the world, but not safe for you and your symptoms. This is not a value judgement, just like the apartment example is not a value judgement. It's not a good fit and it's better for everyone as someone with a disability that you have a good fit and environment for your disability as things are hard enough already.

But depression is an invisible disability. And depression is stigmatized. And now we can throw gender or other things into the mix. Maybe we don't want to tell someone about this, or people at our job, or whatever. There are different reasons for this. But at the end of the day you will run into disability related issues and people won't be able to contextualize them as disability related issues, and they will snowball, and you most likely will suffer as a result.

By being upfront and honest about your disability it's the same thing as having a wheelchair or a cane, although it's more stigmatized and less well understood in this case. In society we are at the point where we look down on people making fun of those that are physically disabled or not assisting them but it still happens to a crazy extent. A lot of the work is already done in that case. Even if people don't understand physical disability they are pressured at least to not be an asshole and pressured via ADA to help people out. The reality is that this does get a lot trickier and people who are really just surface level pressured by society and legal issues to help someone out in the workplace, well, you're going to run into a wall at some point with a physical disability too.

By talking about your disability it's a litmus test to gauge what people are "safe" for you. It will help you get further in your personal and professional life if you have a feeling for who will be helping you because they either have a better understanding (usually people personally impacted by going through it themselves or having a loved one) or someone who has an open enough mind to want to learn about it. The reality is that a lot of people don't fit into those categories. And in many many personal relationships and environments you will fail if you try to get people to understand who don't.

I'm guessing some of the people who are having a reaction to this article are people who just are in the camp of not being "safe" people and need to think about it more or spend time with a loved one who is affected by these things to understand this stuff further. Use the physical disability analogy I used to challenge your views on this subject.

People who don't understand this often think I'm passing value judgements on "perfectly nice" people. I'm not. I just need to cultivate the people around me in the same way that I need to cultivate a space that's physically accessible to me if I had a physical disability. The people you surround yourself can effect your emotions and depression is an emotional disability. If my health suffers when I'm around someone it's not going to do us any good for me to force it for their benefit or for appearances, especially when the risk for me is that I could end up hospitalized. You need to keep very strict boundaries as someone with a disability like this and since people don't contextualize it in the same way that they do a physical disability people are often berated and misunderstood for it, a bit like I see in the comments here. She needs to keep herself safe. It can be that you get wrapped up into the identity thing and I can't speak for her but being able bodied/disabled is just as relevant to your outward way of interacting to the world as is your gender expression or so on and you can't leave it off the table, nor should you really if you want to be healthy.

Re: I will never not talk about my depression

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only take the author for her word, she didn't say anything like this in the article.

No, she wouldn't. If the world has broken her of talking about it, obviously, she wouldn't. I'm giving you my take as a woman. But go ahead and do the PC dismissal as more concrete evidence that what I'm saying is both true and utterly socially unacceptable.

What you have is a theory for why she's depressed. You may be correct or incorrect. Unless you secretly know her neither of us knows if that is true. For me, my depression had nothing to do with the outer world. There isn't always a reason, sometimes it's just biology.

It has nothing to do with what I was trying to say though.

My point is not that her depression is valid or invalid, it's that forming a sense of victimhood into your core identity is dangerous. I would give the same advice to men or women.

I'm not religious but consider this widely known prayer: "grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference". Victim mindset is the opposite, it's focusing on things you can't control. I personally think it's more useful to do the best with what is in your power.

Re: I will never not talk about my depression

#99

Wow, I wish I could just go on sick leave for 4 months because I was feeling depressed...

> Wow, I wish I could just go on sick leave for 4 months because I was feeling depressed... Well... If you're indeed depressed, I wish for that too. However, if you're actually healthy and just making a snarky comment, then I hope you never experience depression- it's hell. No amount of descriptive imagery or keen adjectives can ever convey what it actually feels like, so I understand how people who've never been in…

I'm actually depressed, and have been for years. Working remotely in a room by myself for the last year hasn't helped.

I haven't had a real vacation (more than a week or so of time off) in years.

I have less than 2 weeks worth of PTO sick time accrued. I genuinely wish I had the option of taking 4 months of paid sick leave for mental health reasons. I'm pretty sure that would help me reset my mental state.

Re: I will never not talk about my depression

#100
post #15

Wow, I wish I could just go on sick leave for 4 months because I was feeling depressed...

I deal with depression. If I could choose between a four-month vacation and not being depressed, I would take not being depressed. I wouldn't even have to think about it. It's like looking at someone who's sick with a debilitating illness and saying "Wow, I sure wish I could just lie around in bed all day." No, t0mbstone, you don't. All the things you're imagining you'd do with that time—you can't really do them when…

I wasn't trying to be snarky, even though I realize now it must have come off that way. I understand full well what depression is, as I have struggled with it for years. I genuinely wish I could take 4 months worth of paid sick leave like this article's author was able to. That's not exactly an option here in the USA though.
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