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Europe's Software Problem

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Re: Europe's Software Problem

#91

Post by dralley »

seu wrote: post #90

> European investors specifically are much more interested in traditional business plans than US venture capitalists. “Data is the new oil” does not translate well into German, French or Spanish. > In addition, with the GDPR, NIS (2) Directive & other regulations, data in Europe is definitely more “the new toxic waste”. It is in any case not a business plan. > So not only do we lack the imagination to launch free pla…

>So protecting your citizens' rights and their privacy is "lack of imagination"? This is such a horrible argument.

I don't really think it's the argument the author is making, or if they are, they mean it sarcastically.

The frustration is with the state of affairs where American companies can destroy the entire market for software products with free services built on data mining, much like Uber, Lyft, Doordash, etc. have upended the market by completely ignoring profitability in search of marketshare.

And data mining pretty much is the only way to provide a free service and still make money.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#92

Post by slavoingilizov »

dopidopHN wrote: post #62
slavoingilizov wrote: post #13

"Since all communication platforms are now free, the only way to get people to use competitive European software and services is to also offer these for free, and to make sure this technology is very good and compelling" I have never seen a government or any regulation deliver anything "good and compelling", or take any other action to "make sure" someone else delivers it.

[flagged]

Yes, my statement was very broad. But the point I'm trying to make is that regulation is usually reductive, not additive. It is definitely needed in many cases, and the state should interfere when necessary to ensure safety and fairness. But regulation is never the reason innovation happens.

The spirit of the author's comment was that if you regulate for something becoming compelling, it would become compelling. That never happens. You can't regulate your way to being innovative. I think it was Ben Evans who said the difference between the US and EU is that the US sees regulation as necessary evil, while the EU sees it as an exciting project. Hence the different outcomes.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#93

Post by cblconfederate »

MangoCoffee wrote: post #85

EU is not one market. its 27 markets with different language, history, culture, preferences...etc. is it even worth the time and efforts?

It is one market for google, facebook, apple etc. They all succeeded and there's no reason a successful EU company wouldn't become european and essentially global. But for this to happen u have to have companies that grow

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#94

Post by DrBazza »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #61

> If Europe wants to have its citizens (and companies) rely significantly on European-operated software, it has no choice but to develop better software, NEVER in my 30+ years as a user of computer networks or communication programs I have seen the "better software" win. It has always been the most marketing, the most shady ethics, or anything else that lead to the strongest network effect.

> If Europe wants to have its citizens (and companies) rely significantly on European-operated software, it has no choice but to develop better software,

Europe is at a permanent disadvantage with language. You either target your local market in your local language, or you do English first. If you do English first, your market isn't even in your home country. Even culturally England and the USA (and AUS/NZ) are a bit different to France, Germany, Sweden and so on.

Only one "European" success I can think of whilst typing this: Spotify (anglo-swedish).

America on the other hand has access to a literally flood of venture capital money.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#95

Post by bryanrasmussen »

jan_Inkepa wrote: post #88
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google vs. Yahoo, Ask Jeeves etc. After it was basically the winner it brought in marketing, shady ethics and everything else to keep growing.

Just to be clear, you're listing Google as a counterexample, as a piece of software that was good rather than just marketed as such, right? [ I would accept it as a counterexample. ]

yes.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#96

Post by DrBazza »

pjc50 wrote: post #77
AshamedCaptain wrote: post #61

> If Europe wants to have its citizens (and companies) rely significantly on European-operated software, it has no choice but to develop better software, NEVER in my 30+ years as a user of computer networks or communication programs I have seen the "better software" win. It has always been the most marketing, the most shady ethics, or anything else that lead to the strongest network effect.

Following this, I think it might be instructive to ask what happened to EU tech successes that have failed. Nokia and the famous "burning platform", for example. Was it the case that natural market competition leads to there being only room for two phone OSs? And a far more controversial question: would it be allowed? Or would a successful European world-dominating quasi-monopoly on the FAANG scale get banned from th…

The UK government have blocked the sale to nvidia as far as I know. Whether that means it is being brought back to the UK, I don't know.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56804007

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#97

Post by MangoCoffee »

notanormalnerd wrote: post #72
open-source-ux wrote: post #51

Although the EU is a marketplace of 27 countries, it is not a digitally homogeneous marketplace. Adoption and acceptance of digital tools varies by country. Language is also important - the tech giants localise their apps and tools. But many software companies in larger European countries (France, Germany, Italy, Spain etc) concentrate on their home country first before they focus on international reach. That makes s…

I want to highlight this. There is always talk about a european market, but it is more like 27 markets with one access ticket. You have 27 languages, 27 cultures, 27 political systems, 27 markets, 27 levels of development and infrastructure. Although you have a market of 300 million consumers, they all have different spending habits, different spending power, different needs... America is one market of 300 million pe…

>You have 27 languages, 27 cultures, 27 political systems, 27 markets, 27 levels of development and infrastructure. Although you have a market of 300 million consumers, they all have different spending habits, different spending power, different needs...

i was thinking about that.

that's 27 smaller markets compare to one US or China market. you have to deal with 27 regulations and cultures. is that even worth the time and efforts?

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#98

Post by [deleted] »

qsort wrote: post #78
selfhoster11 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. The US has those things and it's turning into a "third world country with a Gucci belt" (as someone put it) for everyone except the 1% and the indispensable knowledge worker class that can't be automated away or juiced dry for all the productivity they are capa…

Not going to comment on anything else since "flexible working laws" and "less relaxing lifestyle" can mean anything, but "light a fire under their ass until they are forced to innovate" is unironically and unapologetically good. If there's one thing that consistently fosters innovation and progress it's competition. That's something that holds true everywhere. Software, industry, education, games, sports, you name it…

[deleted]

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#99

Post by cletus »

Hot take: the problems here are cultural.

Consider these data points:

1. The US is a country of migrants (ignoring the blight of slavery for now), whether those be those seeking a better life from Europe originally, later China and later still Central and South America. These are all people who uprooted whatever lives they had and legally or illegally migrated to the US. IMHO you still see echoes of this "pioneering" culture and I think it's no accident that the peak of the frontier, the Wild West, and homesteading in general have been deeply mythologized.

But look at TV shows like Gold Rush or Deadliest Catch. Whatever creative license is taken here, you still have people who will take the risk of working a dangerous and dirty job for a share of the proceeds.

The average American just seems to have more of an appetite for risk than at least anywhere I've been in Europe.

2. The much-discussed "Protestant work ethic". As exploitative as it is (and it is exploitative), the willingness of Americans to work all the time has an effect that I don't think you can dismiss.

3. Being comfortable makes you more risk-averse, even lazy. We all joke on here about Europe with its 6-8 weeks of vacation, 35 hour work weeks, universal health care and a year of maternity of leave to some extent. These are all good things. The upside of not having those things, if there is one, is that (IMHO) people have a greater motivation. Again, I'm not saying this is a good thing. It just... is.

4. 330M people most of whom speak one language (English obviously). You can't argue that this doesn't make things easier.

5. The barrier to education that is cost with a legacy admissions system led to the endowment system that created venture capital.

For the record, I'm Australian not American and the above isn't intended to extol the virtues of American culture. For example, the fact that a near-majority of the US thinks it's acceptable that a trip to the ER can bankrupt a significant portion of the population is cruel, even reprehensible.

EDIT: corrected less risk-averse to more risk-averse.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#100

Post by noisy_boy »

Am I the only one who thinks this is not a problem but just how things should be in general? Why should people be pushed to work themselves to death due to societal/financial pressure? If the work culture in Europe provides less stressful life and better work-life balance, barring those who are career driven/ambitious/enjoy the associated challenges, it should be perfectly ok to embrace the former without being guilt-shamed by the latter. I don't have stats but I think the percentage of people who enjoy their work but not as much so as to slow-march to their deaths to the tunes of never-ending deadlines, isn't insignificant.
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