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LSD and psilocybin increase the fractal dimension of brain activity

biorxiv.org

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Re: LSD and psilocybin increase the fractal dimension of brain activity

#91

Post by int_19h »

motohagiography wrote: post #39
Animats wrote: post #4

Well, yes, adding noise increases the fractal dimension of a signal. "Shannon entropy" is noise. "Lempel-Ziv complexity" is "how long is the zip file".

This is an important description, as when you think of a chemical creating impairment, it is essentially adding noise to signals in your brain, and a lot of the geometric and fractal artifacts we see resemble noise artifacts you would get from interfering with other analogue signals. Given your brain takes sensory signal input and coheres it, impairing that ability is going to create signals-based feedback that is de…

I'm very skeptical of this interpretation, if only because LSD doesn't just (or even mostly) cause "noise" hallucinations. It makes you actually notice the tiny details and patterns in everyday things. Not a different reality so much so as a deeper awareness and appreciation of the reality normally perceived.

Re: LSD and psilocybin increase the fractal dimension of brain activity

#92

Post by edgyquant »

______- wrote: post #88

I never hallucinated after trying shrooms, even at high doses. I found this odd, since I have read about countless people saying they saw stuff that wasn't there or saw colorful fractal geometry. So my conclusion is that shrooms simply increased my perception and allowed in more information, and that all this fractal geometry is already there , just waiting to be discovered. It's just like tuning into a higher freque…

I don’t think either LSD or Shrooms causes hallucinations (like seeing a creature that isn’t there.) Mushrooms make me feel strange and see a bit blurry but it’s mostly an internal thing and makes my wind wander. LSD is a bit more intense, visually, like colors become more vibrant and my mind creates detail in even the simplest of items (peeing in the toilet damn near gives me a panic attack.) I’ve only ever heard of people seeing things in movies other than maybe sitting in the dark and seeing “demons” but my mind does that already by trying to give forms to the visual noise of darkness; again just not as intense.

Re: LSD and psilocybin increase the fractal dimension of brain activity

#93

Post by gryn »

singingfish wrote: post #86
motohagiography wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an important description, as when you think of a chemical creating impairment, it is essentially adding noise to signals in your brain, and a lot of the geometric and fractal artifacts we see resemble noise artifacts you would get from interfering with other analogue signals. Given your brain takes sensory signal input and coheres it, impairing that ability is going to create signals-based feedback that is de…

Creating noise in the brain that the nervous system then makes sense of. Interesting theory. Now if I put my mystical hippie hat on I'm going to ask you what you think noise is? Personally I think it's some fundamental property of the universe.

noise is whatever you're not interested in studying/analyzing at the moment.

it's more a property of a thinking agent than it is of the universe.

if you see it everywhere it's because we are the same type of observers, maybe other kinds of hypothetical agents can segments the universe in different ways.

Re: LSD and psilocybin increase the fractal dimension of brain activity

#94

Post by edgyquant »

singingfish wrote: post #86
motohagiography wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an important description, as when you think of a chemical creating impairment, it is essentially adding noise to signals in your brain, and a lot of the geometric and fractal artifacts we see resemble noise artifacts you would get from interfering with other analogue signals. Given your brain takes sensory signal input and coheres it, impairing that ability is going to create signals-based feedback that is de…

Creating noise in the brain that the nervous system then makes sense of. Interesting theory. Now if I put my mystical hippie hat on I'm going to ask you what you think noise is? Personally I think it's some fundamental property of the universe.

I think it’s just the normal noise/lighting/etc that is always there. You just have no reason to actually notice it (it provides no benefit to e.g. a hunter gatherer) so the brain normally disregards it. It’s a fundamental property of the universe but then again so is everything else.

Re: LSD and psilocybin increase the fractal dimension of brain activity

#95

Post by vkomega »

LSD supporter typical response:

* A person had a magnificent, positive life altering experience on LSD. The LSD changed their life for the better

* A person wound up developing psychosis and schizophrenia after taking LSD. It wasn't the LSD's fault; they must have been pre disposed. Family medical history, man.

My take as an outsider is that if you believe LSD helps some people, then it follows that it hurts others, and that it's difficult to predict such outcomes.

It's a mind altering substance, and I'm glad I stayed away from it.

Re: LSD and psilocybin increase the fractal dimension of brain activity

#96

Post by nabla9 »

vkomega wrote: post #43
nabla9 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will psychedelics be ‘a revolution in psychiatry’? https://www.nature.com/articles/d41573-021-00087-7 The Yale Manual for Psilocybin-Assisted Therapy of Depression (using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy as a Therapeutic Frame) https://psyarxiv.com/u6v9y “Trial of Psilocybin versus Escitalopram for Depression“, https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994 Effects of Psilocybin-Assisted Therapy on Major Depres…

Great, thanks for the objective response. My inquiry was substantially downvoted. How can one determine if they are at risk of psychosis prior to consuming LSD? I've heard many stories of people who were "never the same" (in a bad life-outcome sense) after having bad LSD trips. It wasn't clear from family history or medical history that they were at-risk for such a reaction. At least based on these outcomes, it might…

> I've heard many stories of people who were "never the same" (in a bad life-outcome sense) after having bad LSD trips.

This seems to be weird legend with very little fact behind it.

> claim LSD is safe.

Obliviously nothing is perfectly safe, but pharmacologicallly LSD is the safest drug there is. Safer than Aspirin. It's virtually impossible to overdose it, it's not toxic and LD50 is way 10^5 - 10^6 times of what is the usage. It is possible to get into accident during big LSD trip if you are not fully aware of your surroundings. Having trip sitter helps with that.

Frequent use of any drug when you are young is probably always more risky. Brain is fully developed late 20's.

Re: LSD and psilocybin increase the fractal dimension of brain activity

#97

Post by type0 »

bronzeage wrote: post #3

Why is it even legal to conduct LSD experiments? There was some animal testing post earlier, but giving people illegal consciousness altering drugs seems so much worse.

I find the concept of "illegal consciousness" fascinating

Re: LSD and psilocybin increase the fractal dimension of brain activity

#98

Post by warent »

okareaman wrote: post #83
anm89 wrote: post #77

Totally separate from whatever this paper is claiming, I'm already dreading a conversation at some future party in which some person rambles on regarding a very unscientific understanding of this paper and something about burning man.

You might get lucky and someone will bend your ear about Terence McKenna and Machine Elves

Dismissing someone with a mind full of unique and creative ideas is generally a bad idea. It's okay to disagree but it's completely unnecessary for us to stand on an ivory tower staring down on people we don't understand

Re: LSD and psilocybin increase the fractal dimension of brain activity

#99

Post by GuB-42 »

int_19h wrote: post #91
motohagiography wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an important description, as when you think of a chemical creating impairment, it is essentially adding noise to signals in your brain, and a lot of the geometric and fractal artifacts we see resemble noise artifacts you would get from interfering with other analogue signals. Given your brain takes sensory signal input and coheres it, impairing that ability is going to create signals-based feedback that is de…

I'm very skeptical of this interpretation, if only because LSD doesn't just (or even mostly) cause "noise" hallucinations. It makes you actually notice the tiny details and patterns in everyday things. Not a different reality so much so as a deeper awareness and appreciation of the reality normally perceived.

I don't think it is incompatible.

To keep with the TV analogy, let's say you are watching a movie, enjoying the story, the setting, etc... Then, noised is added to the signal and you start seeing all sorts of glitches.

For example, let's imagine that the boot of a character flickers a bit. That boot has its importance, the director wanted to give the movie a certain aesthetic and that boot is part of it, but it is not important in the story and you are not supposed to notice it, in fact it is especially designed not to be out of place.

But because of the glitch, you now have all your attention focused on the boot, which is interesting, but you lost the big picture, too hard to understand now because of the noise. Maybe the next glitch will highlight the pavement or a lamp post.

Re: LSD and psilocybin increase the fractal dimension of brain activity

#100

Post by okareaman »

warent wrote: post #98
okareaman wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might get lucky and someone will bend your ear about Terence McKenna and Machine Elves

Dismissing someone with a mind full of unique and creative ideas is generally a bad idea. It's okay to disagree but it's completely unnecessary for us to stand on an ivory tower staring down on people we don't understand

Another case where I didn't get my tone across - I admire McKenna and have listened to quite a bit of his stuff. He's close to being a genius if he isn't one. However, I didn't really sync up with the machine elve threads.
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