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Silicon Valley thought India was its future, now things have changed

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Re: Silicon Valley thought India was its future, now things have changed

#91
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gave you actual examples of improvements I’ve seen with my own two eyes. People can’t drink gdp. I don’t doubt there could be an IT cell. What I was reacting to was the idea that it is a major reason for Modi’s success. Like “Russian collusion” this is just cope by people who can’t accept that it is they who are the unpopular ones. People don’t understand that propaganda like hypnotism only works on people who are…

Well people can drink their own blood. I actually knew people who were massacred in gulbarga society. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulbarg_Society_massacre Your screed reads like an apologia for Hitler. I actually know Muslim friends in ahmedabad that cannot buy or rent a house in normal housing societies and have been ghettoized into Muslim enclaves with non existent municipal services. I am glad that I live in t…

India without dharma would be Pakistan.

The justification for the Dresden bombing is that the nazis would have done worse.

The sad part is that the victims are usually innocent. However, Muslims have always been the perpetrators of unwarranted violence.

Re: Silicon Valley thought India was its future, now things have changed

#92
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India is arguably faithfully following the US here, because Modi's populism has more than a few parallels to Trump.

Given the timelines involved, I'd say it's more likely that not that Modi is following in the footsteps of Xi Jinping. In fact most of Asia is in the hands of some kind of ethno-nationalist leader, from Duterte in the Phillipines to Suga in Japan, Xi in China or Jae-In in S. Korea. Modi is not really exceptional when viewed on the scale of other asian leaders. But Asia has always had a much more ethno-nationalist ben…

That's a really interesting take. History must have had a role to play here, although I wonder in what way that could've influenced the current outlook and mindset of the peoples.

Re: Silicon Valley thought India was its future, now things have changed

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to not have any resemblance to the historical decline of the "Vedic Culture" way before any "colonising" by the "west". If the guys writing the history didn't mess it up, wasn't buddha himself against the caste system? That seems way before there was even a Church in the West to begin with.

A lot of myths have been built around Buddha or Ashoka, in the recent years to fit politics. Buddha considered himself very much a Hindu.

What an absolutely shocking misrepresentation of the Buddha !

The Buddha rejected the authority of the Vedas entirely and this infuriated the Brahmins of that time. He had both philosophical and pragmatic objections to the theistic stance of Brahminical groups, along with a total rejection of their focus on mass animal slaughter in the name of rituals.

From the original Pali canon, this discourse captures the Buddha's position:

https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/sujato

And, Adi Sankara wrote an entire polemic trashing the Buddha as an insignificant man who should be shunned by everybody. Here is a passage straight from the Vedanta Sutras written by Sankara:

Moreover, Buddha by propounding the three mutually contradictory systems, teaching respectively the reality of the external world, the reality of ideas only, and general nothingness, has himself made it clear either that he was a man given to make incoherent assertions, or else that hatred of all beings induced him to propound absurd doctrines by accepting which they would become thoroughly confused.--So that--and this the Sutra means to indicate--Buddha's doctrine has to be entirely disregarded by all those who have a regard for their own happiness.

Source: https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe34/sbe34208.htm

Re: Silicon Valley thought India was its future, now things have changed

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to not have any resemblance to the historical decline of the "Vedic Culture" way before any "colonising" by the "west". If the guys writing the history didn't mess it up, wasn't buddha himself against the caste system? That seems way before there was even a Church in the West to begin with.

A lot of myths have been built around Buddha or Ashoka, in the recent years to fit politics. Buddha considered himself very much a Hindu.

As for the new narrative being heavily pushed these days that the caste system is a remnant of British colonial times, a few words from an Untouchable girl can correct it - written in the year 1855. From the essay:

Earlier, Gokhale, Apate, Trimkaji, Andhala, Pansara, Kale, Behre, etc [all Brahman surnames], who showed their bravery by killing rats in their homes, persecuted us, not sparing even pregnant women, without any rhyme or reason. This has stopped now. Harassment and torture of Mahars and Mangs, common during the rule of Peshwas in Pune, have stopped. Now, human sacrifice for the foundation of forts and mansions has stopped – now, nobody buries us alive. Now, our population is growing in numbers. Earlier, if any Mahar or Mang wore fine clothes, they would say that only Brahmans should wear such clothes. Seen in fine clothes, we were earlier accused of stealing such clothes. Their religion was in danger of being polluted when Untouchables put clothes around their bodies; they would tie them to a tree and punish them. But, under British rule, anybody with money can buy and wear clothes. Earlier, punishment for any wrongdoing against the upper castes was to behead the guilty Untouchable— now, it has stopped. Excessive and exploitative tax has stopped. The practice of untouchability has stopped in some places. Killing has stopped on the playground. Now, we can even visit the marketplace.

Source: https://www.forwardpress.in/2020/02/165-years-ago-first-fema...

Re: Silicon Valley thought India was its future, now things have changed

#95
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of myths have been built around Buddha or Ashoka, in the recent years to fit politics. Buddha considered himself very much a Hindu.

What an absolutely shocking misrepresentation of the Buddha ! The Buddha rejected the authority of the Vedas entirely and this infuriated the Brahmins of that time. He had both philosophical and pragmatic objections to the theistic stance of Brahminical groups, along with a total rejection of their focus on mass animal slaughter in the name of rituals. From the original Pali canon, this discourse captures the Buddha'…

You clearly do not understand what Hinduism is.

Brahmins are a small subset, who at different regions and times might have been corrupt. Just like the church.

But unlike the church, Hinduism is experiential and no one has a monopoly, which is precisely why Buddhism is one of many 1000s of movements.

There is no singular holy book and no need even in communities where it existed.

Re: Silicon Valley thought India was its future, now things have changed

#96
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gave you actual examples of improvements I’ve seen with my own two eyes. People can’t drink gdp. I don’t doubt there could be an IT cell. What I was reacting to was the idea that it is a major reason for Modi’s success. Like “Russian collusion” this is just cope by people who can’t accept that it is they who are the unpopular ones. People don’t understand that propaganda like hypnotism only works on people who are…

Well people can drink their own blood. I actually knew people who were massacred in gulbarga society. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulbarg_Society_massacre Your screed reads like an apologia for Hitler. I actually know Muslim friends in ahmedabad that cannot buy or rent a house in normal housing societies and have been ghettoized into Muslim enclaves with non existent municipal services. I am glad that I live in t…

The village I’m referring to (in Rajkot district) is less than 5% Muslim and those are Ismaili, Vohra etc. Even for them what happens to Sunnis in Ahmedabad might as well be on Mars as far as they care. What the RSS think about Hinduism is also irrelevant. Modi is revered for one reason and one reason only; what he actually did to make those peoples lives better. I mentioned in my original post that his popularity has not translated into popularity for the BJP in the area. That too is for local reasons.

LOL my “screed reads like an apologia for Hitler.” You are getting too emotional. I’m explaining why Modi is popular. Don’t think about it if it upsets you but don’t shoot the messenger in any case.

Re: Silicon Valley thought India was its future, now things have changed

#97
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What an absolutely shocking misrepresentation of the Buddha ! The Buddha rejected the authority of the Vedas entirely and this infuriated the Brahmins of that time. He had both philosophical and pragmatic objections to the theistic stance of Brahminical groups, along with a total rejection of their focus on mass animal slaughter in the name of rituals. From the original Pali canon, this discourse captures the Buddha'…

You clearly do not understand what Hinduism is. Brahmins are a small subset, who at different regions and times might have been corrupt. Just like the church. But unlike the church, Hinduism is experiential and no one has a monopoly, which is precisely why Buddhism is one of many 1000s of movements. There is no singular holy book and no need even in communities where it existed.

This obsession with trying to somehow make the Buddha and his teaching as a branch of Hinduism falls flat on its face when you look at his teaching even cursorily. The central tenet of the Buddha's position was his exposition of anatta (not-self), which is directly opposed to all Hindu doctrines which preach that finding one's 'true self' is the goal of existence. Instead, the Buddha taught that the search for a 'true self' (including God, Brahman etc.) is futile and pointless. This is an irreconcilable cleavage between Buddhism and Hinduism.

You really need to look into the Buddha's teaching properly before trying to appropriate it to fit your agenda.

Re: Silicon Valley thought India was its future, now things have changed

#98
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You clearly do not understand what Hinduism is. Brahmins are a small subset, who at different regions and times might have been corrupt. Just like the church. But unlike the church, Hinduism is experiential and no one has a monopoly, which is precisely why Buddhism is one of many 1000s of movements. There is no singular holy book and no need even in communities where it existed.

This obsession with trying to somehow make the Buddha and his teaching as a branch of Hinduism falls flat on its face when you look at his teaching even cursorily. The central tenet of the Buddha's position was his exposition of anatta (not-self), which is directly opposed to all Hindu doctrines which preach that finding one's 'true self' is the goal of existence. Instead, the Buddha taught that the search for a 'tru…

For me Hinduism is an ecosystem as is for millions of Hindus.

A Hindu will feel very comfortable in a Buddhist temple and practice and vice versa. Hindus themselves have extremely diverse traditions.

I see where we have diverging views. My Swedish landlords who happens to be a Christian once asked we where is your holy book.

In her mind not having a one-one equivalent with Christianity delegitimises the religion.

In trying to intellectualise the debate, you have taken the limited view of a Christian.

The vast majority of the Hindus are open to the ideas of Buddhism as well as 1000s of tribal/rural/regional gods and rituals. Not only is there no conflict, there is perhaps no clear boundaries.

This is completely alien to xtianity/Islam.

Re: Silicon Valley thought India was its future, now things have changed

#99
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of myths have been built around Buddha or Ashoka, in the recent years to fit politics. Buddha considered himself very much a Hindu.

What an absolutely shocking misrepresentation of the Buddha ! The Buddha rejected the authority of the Vedas entirely and this infuriated the Brahmins of that time. He had both philosophical and pragmatic objections to the theistic stance of Brahminical groups, along with a total rejection of their focus on mass animal slaughter in the name of rituals. From the original Pali canon, this discourse captures the Buddha'…

The neo-Hindu view of the Buddha is indeed misrepresentation. Buddha couldn’t have been a Hindu because “Hinduism” as they understand it simply didn’t exist at that time. But your view isn’t any better.

1. There is no reason to believe the Pali Tripitaka represents the authentic words or teachings of the Buddha. He would have spoken Magadhi as his mother tongue. Pali was a Western Prakrit and moreover a trade and literary language not a popular one. Also the Pali Tripitaka was composed and edited by the Hinayanists several centuries after the Buddha’s life and expresses doctrinal developments that would be anachronistic in that era.

2. There is no particular reason to believe that Buddha and early Buddhism was against caste except in the general sense that they are against worldly behaviors of any type. You won’t find anything about it in the Aryan eightfold path (Aryashtangamarga) for instance. (Aryan is usually translated as “noble” in this case. Did you ever wonder why?). The ten major disciples of the Buddha were all either Brahmanas or his royal relatives. The first major historical Buddhist ruler Ashoka in his rock edicts exhorts his subjects to respect both “Brahmanas and Shramanas”. The Ashokavadana, the earliest Buddhist hagiography (and canonical in Theravada) states that a Buddha can only be born in a Brahmana or Kshatriya womb.

3. Buddhism is against karma and holds that liberation is from Jnana only. Animal sacrifices are mentioned a lot because they are particularly vivid examples of the negative consequences of karma but the Buddhist critique applies just as readily to lighting a ghee lamp for worldly reasons. The Jains were more consistently for non-violence than the Buddhists. (No predominantly Buddhist culture is predominantly vegetarian). Jnana only is the position of Advaita Vedanta too. The difference is Smarta Hinduism developed a modus vivendi where karma was acceptable for householders. There was no lay Buddhism during its Indian phase only the sangha so the question could be put aside.

4. Yes Astika philosophers and saints contended against Buddhist counterparts (and each other) but it is anachronistic to bring those disputes back to the time of the Buddha himself. By the time of Shankaracharya there were several mutually antagonistic Buddhist sects. (Actually three is generous. Traditionally there are said to be eighteen.). That is what he is referring to. They can’t all be “the true teaching of the Buddha” unless he was incoherent.

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