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“Setting the record straight on Freenode” [pdf]

techrights.org

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Re: “Setting the record straight on Freenode” [pdf]

#91

Post by Macha »

tapoxi wrote: post #55
Syonyk wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * Maybe you should consider incorporating it as a nonprofit and potentially a technology switch to Matrix? * Please don't. I like Matrix, I use it, but it's not IRC, and it's far, far more resource heavy (both in homeserver and in clients) than IRC is. You can run IRC on ancient gutless wonders, and it uses almost no resources. Matrix, especially the flagship Element client, is a resource hog. Start throwing rooms…

IRC stays IRC, but how else does a network like freenode survive a giant schism? They need to differentiate from libera chat. Matrix has problems, but as the ecosystem grows we'll start to see improvements.

If Libera.chat gets 60% of the users, freenode would still be the second largest IRC network. I think there will be a enough inertia among people/projects who don't follow hacker news or internet trends for the remainder of freenode to retain an audience.

The bigger question is if they retain enough server sponsors, who may be paying more attention. They might defect to libera.chat or OFTC, or just decide the whole business is not worth their while.

Re: “Setting the record straight on Freenode” [pdf]

#92

Post by blibble »

rcdwealth wrote: post #39
rasengan wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi this is Andrew from the post and freenode. Long story short, former staff were upset about a logo but the logos were there since the start. I wanted to share that. Secondly, staff claim there was a hostile takeover. I have owned freenode for years and was a great custodian as far as I can tell (only compliments from former staff some of which even flew into defcon and came to my house on my dime, internationally)…

Thanks Andrew, and very good that you prepared enough evidences to counter those issues raised by drama queens. All the free software is protected by copyrights, foundations, and so is the infrastructure. Somebody has to pay for it. Somebody does have assets, be it foundation or private individual or a group of individuals, but somebody is always considered owner of the assets and those assets have to be protected. T…

it's free because the actual sponsors (the ISPs) paid for the servers and the staff volunteered their time to support the network

Mr Lee coming along and secretly giving christel a salary on the side would likely have had no effect on the operations of the IRC network had it not happened (bar maybe christel spending less time on IRC...)

Re: “Setting the record straight on Freenode” [pdf]

#93

Post by sillysaurusx »

tapoxi wrote: post #55
Syonyk wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * Maybe you should consider incorporating it as a nonprofit and potentially a technology switch to Matrix? * Please don't. I like Matrix, I use it, but it's not IRC, and it's far, far more resource heavy (both in homeserver and in clients) than IRC is. You can run IRC on ancient gutless wonders, and it uses almost no resources. Matrix, especially the flagship Element client, is a resource hog. Start throwing rooms…

IRC stays IRC, but how else does a network like freenode survive a giant schism? They need to differentiate from libera chat. Matrix has problems, but as the ecosystem grows we'll start to see improvements.

Why wouldn’t freenode survive? The people that want to go can go. The people that stay, stay.

Re: “Setting the record straight on Freenode” [pdf]

#94

Post by wut42 »

rasengan wrote: post #85
rcxdude wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think nearly the entire staff was against this? If it was a hostile takeover by a small 'non democratic' group, would you not expect that only that group would quit? Also, if you were the owner of freenode for so long, why does almost no-one in the chat logs which have been made public seem to be aware of you?

Did you read the PDF? It’s actually really clear there. Lots of defamatory and false comments were made by the former staff - which are proven to be false in the document. In terms of the ownership, it was on the main blog and website for the past 4 years [1]. Also checkout http://techrights.org/2021/05/21/freenode-facts/ Thanks! [1] https://freenode.net/news/pia-fn

>There will be few noticeable changes in terms of day-to-day operations, the freenode project will continue to operate with much the same structure and volunteer base as it does now

Re: “Setting the record straight on Freenode” [pdf]

#95

Post by duckfang »

logical_person wrote: post #67
duckfang wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oof. Confidentiality, NDA's, and other business tools like it are at complete odds with open source, free software, transparency, and honesty. It's comments like this that cement the idea of getting off of Freenode to Libera.chat is the best thing we could do.

To say business tools and confidentiality are at odds with open source is comical at best. Some of us work on FOSS as a career. We still have to sign NDAs with customers, we still upstream patches to core components. Throwing your toys out of the ring because business is business is why open source has a funding problem.

> To say business tools and confidentiality are at odds with open source is comical at best. Some of us work on FOSS as a career. We still have to sign NDAs with customers, we still upstream patches to core components.

It makes sense that credentials to services are confidential. But aside that, the whole point behind a bulk of free software and open source is that everything's done out in the open. You get to watch the meat grinder - and you can even operate it as well! The head butcher may have exacting quality controls, but again - its viewable.

And yes, many of us have NDA's. I have a few myself, only on the specific implementations of systems I build and/or maintain, and internal business things. I reviewed it with an attorney, and believed their limited scope was acceptable and reasonable.

> Throwing your toys out of the ring because business is business is why open source has a funding problem.

There's a few assumptions there.

1. I helped *migrate* people away from (un)Freenode to Libera.chat . I didn't throw them away - i helped move people over for a mostly seamless experience.

2. That open source/free software has a funding problem... That's just a troll statement - you're assuming business needs are the same as FOSS. They're not. And unlike closed source proprietary, once FOSS code has been written, everyone can share. But you knew that; and that's why I call it a troll statement. It's disingenuous at its core.

Re: “Setting the record straight on Freenode” [pdf]

#97

Post by c-cube »

mrweasel wrote: post #32
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #13

> In 2017, Christel, the former owner of freenode, asked me for assistance with funding and asked me to acquire it. I oblige. Was Christel ever the owner of Freenode? I thought Freenode was anarchically-organised.

It’s a mess. I’d gotten the impression that Freenode just recently been bought. Are the staff leaving due to issue dating back four years, because the owner have been so hands off that nobody noticed before now?

There is such as thing as letting the dust settle before you make your move. Look at what Facebook has done with whatsapp, a few years after the acquisition; clearly it was planned from the start but they had to wait a bit.

Re: “Setting the record straight on Freenode” [pdf]

#99

Post by rasengan »

wut42 wrote: post #94
rasengan wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the PDF? It’s actually really clear there. Lots of defamatory and false comments were made by the former staff - which are proven to be false in the document. In terms of the ownership, it was on the main blog and website for the past 4 years [1]. Also checkout http://techrights.org/2021/05/21/freenode-facts/ Thanks! [1] https://freenode.net/news/pia-fn

>There will be few noticeable changes in terms of day-to-day operations, the freenode project will continue to operate with much the same structure and volunteer base as it does now

It did until I was locked out of the dns and an internal reorganization and structure was put in place. The screenshots from former staff agenda is on the PDF.

I don’t wish to be on irc 24/7 contrary to what people might or might not think.

Re: “Setting the record straight on Freenode” [pdf]

#100

Post by Macha »

hhvn wrote: post #50
tapoxi wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've read it seems like you generally seem to have Freenode's interests at heart, but this seems like a complete communication failure. Most channels I've been a part of have moved to Libera Chat, so I don't think Freenode in its current form can recover from this. Maybe you should consider incorporating it as a nonprofit and potentially a technology switch to Matrix? It would be nice to have a homeserver t…

One of the main points of matrix is that every server should be compatible and form a federation with others. What is the point of moving people onto a specific server? With IRC freenode has a control structure that can enforce their rules/guidelines, this breaks with matrix.

I think the big concerns with matrix.org centralisation are:

* If matrix.org went away tomorrow, is there enough capacity in the rest of matrix for users to migrate to.

* Federation only exists when a channel has users from multiple homeservers on it - how many small/medium channels only exist on matrix.org?

* People's identities are tied to their home server. You would be userfoo:matrix.org - if matrix.org went away, how would you find all your contacts again?

Points 1 and 2 would be addressed by more capacity and more independent homeservers, point 3 would require some sort of multi-homing.

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