Chiropractors are bullshit • Hacker News Board

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#91

Post by sanderjd » Sat, May 15, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

candiddevmike wrote: post #5

At best, Chiropractors are bullshit. At worst, they kill or paralyze people. Their manipulations offer temporary pain relief because they forcefully mobilize the joint/bone structure. The only way to fix this long term is by correcting the muscle imbalances through physical therapy. Most people would rather get immediate pain relief vs months of therapy and exercise, so they have a constant supply of victims. Chiropr…

When I read a sentence like your first one, it sounds to me like somebody saying, "at best, massages are bullshit", which just strikes me as odd. At the very least it's clear that lots of people self report feeling better after partaking in their services, in both cases.

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#92

Post by CarelessExpert » Sat, May 15, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

prossercj wrote: post #66

fartcannon wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me start by saying that I agree that doctors do suck. They are people and that should be enough to understand them. But all self regulating industries with a financial incentive to lie suck. I realize this topic treads deeply into quasi-religious territory so forgive me in advance, but couldn't this just be the placebo effect? Mixed with the healing effect of someone caring about you? Maybe your physio actually g…

Not OP, But I've also had some success with chiropractic. There is some wackiness to avoid out there (the ones who treat it like a spirituality), but the one I go to currently takes a disciplined approach. They only target a few specific places based on thermal scans on the spine. Their argument is that subluxations (misalignment of the vertebrae) impair nerve function, kind of like having a kink in a hose. Misaligne…

> Their argument is that subluxations (misalignment of the vertebrae) impair nerve function, kind of like having a kink in a hose.

And this "theory" is--pardon the expression--complete horseshit that's unsupported by any scientific evidence.

The article actually covers this topic at some length, including the fact that this "theory" regarding subluxations was discovered through the very scientific practice of seance...

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#93

Post by sanderjd » Sat, May 15, 2021, 3:20 PM UTC

sigmaprimus wrote: post #42

I hurt my back moving a friend, went to a chiropractor for two weeks. Im not sure if it wad a pinched nerve or what but the pain was excruciating when transitioning from standing to sitting and vice versa. On my 4th visit the pain was still there but the chiropractor put me on the table positined me on my side with my arms arcross my chest and knees bent and amazingly he pushed down and the pain dissapeared instantly…

Lots of people have this kind of experience. If you did a survey asking people whether chiropractors are useful for musculoskeletal problems, you would get a strong response that yes they are. But self reported experience, even through a broad survey is not evidence because people can't be trusted to accurately report what they feel.

I personally think the problem is that the practice has over-medicalized what it does, and medicine does indeed require a high burden of objective evidence, which they can't meet. But there are plenty of things that people do where "do people like it?" and "is it safe enough?" are high enough bars.

I do think the question of "is it safe enough?" is the interesting one with respect to chiropractic adjustments, and I wish that were better separated from the (in my opinion) more tedious debate about whether it is generally BS.

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#94

Post by CarelessExpert » Sat, May 15, 2021, 3:25 PM UTC

oogabooga123 wrote: post #22

We should invent the name for the aspects that are not bullshit, then. Some of the things they do are objectively helping some people in some cases. Gatekeeping medicine is important, but it can also become just that, gatekeeping

> We should invent the name for the aspects that are not bullshit, then.

We did: Physiotherapy.

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#95

Post by 77pt77 » Sat, May 15, 2021, 3:27 PM UTC

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #24

77pt77 wrote: post #6

Do they even exist outside of north America?

In India, there have been traditionally "bone setters" who literally do just that. Did you fall down the stairs and twisted your arm? Or shoulder or leg? Well they did that. I saw once at a hospital a kid who had fallen off a bike. There were like 4 men pulling and twisting his pelvis like crazy. I shuddered at the sight. These were actual doctors so yeah. About the bone setters, they just fixed your twisted limb or…

That's slightly different. Bone setters exist(ed) almost everywhere.

Chiropractors have this weird fixation on vertebrae.

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#96

Post by warble » Sat, May 15, 2021, 3:32 PM UTC

enriquto wrote: post #33

cj wrote: post #11

I come from a long lineage of chiropractors (although I’m not one). I’ve never been a big believer in the practice, and yes there are very rare cases where a chiropractic adjustment can lead to a stroke but again, it’s extremely rare. (Perhaps less rare if you’re going to the guy at the mall kiosk..) I’d like to see some scientific studies proving chiropractic adjustments are harmful. A lot of physical and mental hea…

> I’d like to see some scientific studies proving chiropractic adjustments are harmful. This is really not at all how science works. On the contrary, chiropractors should be able to prove that their methods work to a community of extremely skeptical scientists, using double-blind tests as is standard practice. At the end, it is likely mostly harmless, just like homeopathy. It may be even positive, in that receiving r…

Sure it is, he's addressing a specific question that is theoretically testable.

This is the same question that gets asked of drug developers as well - There's the efficacy question AND the harmful question. Does it work? (not what he's asking) and Does it break something? (this is the question)

This is a valid scientific endeavor.

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#97

Post by spaginal » Sat, May 15, 2021, 3:35 PM UTC

sanderjd wrote: post #93

sigmaprimus wrote: post #42

I hurt my back moving a friend, went to a chiropractor for two weeks. Im not sure if it wad a pinched nerve or what but the pain was excruciating when transitioning from standing to sitting and vice versa. On my 4th visit the pain was still there but the chiropractor put me on the table positined me on my side with my arms arcross my chest and knees bent and amazingly he pushed down and the pain dissapeared instantly…

Lots of people have this kind of experience. If you did a survey asking people whether chiropractors are useful for musculoskeletal problems, you would get a strong response that yes they are. But self reported experience, even through a broad survey is not evidence because people can't be trusted to accurately report what they feel. I personally think the problem is that the practice has over-medicalized what it doe…

The alternative in past observed experience was going to a doctor for back pain and being prescribed pills that turned you into a pill addict that needed to be weaned off of them.

Personally, I know the adjustments work, but I’ve seen the alternative scenario with guys I’ve played hockey with they were hurt, and even if it were all in my head, it’s still a far superior outcome frankly. I’m pain free and drug free.

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#98

Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 15, 2021, 3:41 PM UTC

mellosouls wrote: post #67

geocrasher wrote: post #49

I've lived both sides of this. I once went to a chiropractor for back issues and he made me seriously worse and it took months to recover because what he thought just needed to be put in was actually a herniated disc. Fast forward more than a decade and I have an amazing chiropractor. Every time I go there, I walk away feeling better, walking straighter, and in less pain. My daughter also goes there and the chiroprac…

If anything I think it's a shame that the quacks and the Good Guys can share the same title. But it's the same in any profession, isn't it? No. Chiropractic medicine is pseudo-scientific, so inevitably the percentage of quacks will be far greater than in a scientific-based medicine. So not remotely the same.

[deleted]

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#99

Post by mellosouls » Sat, May 15, 2021, 3:42 PM UTC

geocrasher wrote: post #77

mellosouls wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything I think it's a shame that the quacks and the Good Guys can share the same title. But it's the same in any profession, isn't it? No. Chiropractic medicine is pseudo-scientific, so inevitably the percentage of quacks will be far greater than in a scientific-based medicine. So not remotely the same.

And I have quite literally watched PhD's ignore science and go based on their feelings- making [incorrect] diagnosis without even standing within 5 feet of the patient. If that isn't pseudo-scientific, then I don't know what is. So yes, it is remotely the same.

You are confusing anecdotal observations of outlier instances (bad docs in medicine) with a general approach (the pseudo-science of chiropractic "medicine"), which is essentially restating your initial comment.

Re: Chiropractors are bullshit

#100

Post by Jeff_Brown » Sat, May 15, 2021, 4:02 PM UTC

cj wrote: post #19

whalesalad wrote: post #4

Chiropractors frustrate me because they tend to treat symptoms - not root causes. You can get 'adjusted' a million times but if you have a muscle imbalance or perpetual tightness that is pulling something out alignment you will always fall back into that state. For instance, if you sit for hours in the same funny position on your couch every night. Or if you tend to sit on one leg constantly. Or if you sleep in the s…

> For instance, if you sit for hours in the same funny position on your couch every night. For what it’s worth, good chiropractors will dig in and give advice like “don’t drive with your wallet in your back pocket because you’ll sit crooked” Chiropractors tend to be more holistic in their thinking in my experience compared to regular doctors who ignore lifestyle issues.

My extreme prejudice against chiropractors notwithstanding, that wallet advice is good. And I believe there's lots of similarly low-lying fruit.

I told a nurse once about my grandmother's extreme spinal hunch. She responded that the tragedy of that particular illness is that usually it can be prevented by regularly exercising your back's range of motion in every direction, and not perpetually hunching over.