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‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

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Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#91

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

jsf wrote: post #66
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing that should matter is: Can he do the job? Whether he wrote a book people get their panties twisted over does not appear to be a part of that job description. When did this concept become so controversial?

He literally said "Most women in the Bay Area are ... generally full of shit". How can you work with someone that thinks that, specially if you are a woman, say, in the Bay Area? And how can he do the job if people can't effectively work with him?

If it helps, men are full of shit too.. I m not even joking. Am I misandrist now and should lose my job?

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#92

Post by HKH2 »

p1necone wrote: post #31
ARandomerDude wrote: post #20

> At Apple, we have always strived to create an inclusive, welcoming workplace where everyone is respected and accepted. Behavior that demeans or discriminates against people for who they are has no place here. - Apple Sounds amazingly like: > This is an environment of welcoming, and you should just get the hell out of here. - Michael Scott

In order to have a welcoming space you need to kick out people who are not themselves welcoming. Nobody is being hypocritical here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

You'll probably do very well at getting rid of people you obviously deem unwelcoming, but you're likely to welcome a lot of passive aggressive behavior unawares.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#93

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

williamsmj wrote: post #57
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess we will never know since the mob made it clear that he does not belong despite claims of 'inclusive values' and 'diverse perspectives'. Its funny when those perspective and values include only those that are already acceptable to the mob.

Correct, we'll never know because actions have consequences.

Your face will be so red, when 10 years from now, something your wrote on HN will be deemed unfit for the current social mores.

We will discuss actions and consequences again from an amusingly differing perspective I am sure.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#94

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

williamsmj wrote: post #87
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I... do not see why we would presume that.

The guy wrote a literal NYT/WSJ bestseller, a justifiably noteworthy book about the tech industry. It was covered in the tech and mainstream press extensively. He's a well known public figure, not an anonymous engineer. I don't see any reason to doubt that plenty of people at Apple had heard of him and read the book, other than a self-regarding faith that people you disagree with can't possibly know something you don…

It was covered in the tech and mainstream press, yes. Did any of that coverage indicate that it was so shockingly offensive nobody should ever hire him, as these employees claim to find obvious?

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#95

Post by motohagiography »

There's a rule in politics and senior roles where your job is to not be the news. Apple didn't have a choice in this case. This guy's book was irritating, and it sounds like he crossed some personal lines outside of it. Examples of how awful other managers everywhere are guilty of the same and much worse don't justify anything he might have done to someone either. However, mobs cynically and disingenuously exploit this "don't be the news" convention. They're the stopped clock that found a vulnerability to leverage on this particular day and his conceits handed them the scalp they were looking for. He made himself the perfect straw man. So, Point: mob, but I don't think there is any moral high ground in this story.

The real issue is it looks like Apple has fair weather leadership, and it has made their brand vulnerable to scandal. They're at a stage where a single well timed joke or meme could wipe out billions in market cap. I like their products and a lot of what they do for privacy and security, but this episode suggests their leadership is misreading the zeitgeist and has lost sight of where growth comes from. It's not fun to defend personalities I don't like, but they're only principles when it's hard to apply them.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#96

Post by pr0zac »

cudgy wrote: post #73
MyHypatia wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the company had let him stay, how should it respond to female employees who bring up "Hey, this person wrote that women are useless baggage and he's going to evaluate me, determine my salary, and career opportunities here. Why should I stay?" Should all the women just quit? What's the point in staying? If this were written about men instead, I don't think male employees would stick around to watch their compensati…

How do you then handle a worker that claims white men are inherently racist? Or a worker that posts red-headed men are ugly and stupid? Or a worker that claims almost ex-military people are ignorant and violent? Do all workers who are men and ex-military have the right to demand their removal?

In the same way you handle all people who actively publish hateful comments about protected classes of people, by firing them so they cannot inflict their beliefs on other workers.

I feel like you think you’re posting some sort of gotcha. Do you not believe Apple would’ve done the same thing in those cases? Based on what? Do you have a single example of that happening?

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#97

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

kazinator wrote: post #90
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? Is it racist too? Please help me out here. I am trying to be reasonable about it, but the reaction to my simple statement created ridiculous level of response I did not expect so I expect to defend it. I repeat. The only thing that matters is whether this person can do their job. How does that make me sexist?

Your position is illogical. The question "can this person do the job" can be a resounding, objective "yes", for someone who, say, also happens to embezzle cash from the company. If that's the "only thing that matters", then the thief should keep the job and continue stealing. Especially if you want to defend some unpopular position, you have make sure you don't have logical holes in it, like universal absolutes that…

No. Can the person do the job includes their obvious drawbacks ( like tendency to steal ). I do not consider writing a book, however salacious and 'wrong' it may be, to be in that particular category.

The guy is an asshole, but it is hard to argue he does not know what he is doing.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#98

Post by pseudalopex »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #94
williamsmj wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guy wrote a literal NYT/WSJ bestseller, a justifiably noteworthy book about the tech industry. It was covered in the tech and mainstream press extensively. He's a well known public figure, not an anonymous engineer. I don't see any reason to doubt that plenty of people at Apple had heard of him and read the book, other than a self-regarding faith that people you disagree with can't possibly know something you don…

It was covered in the tech and mainstream press, yes. Did any of that coverage indicate that it was so shockingly offensive nobody should ever hire him, as these employees claim to find obvious?

The petition just implied someone should have read the book before Apple offered him a job.[1]

[1] https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/12/22432909/apple-petition-h...

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#99

Post by williamsmj »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #79
williamsmj wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here he is being told to his face that his writing is "very misogynistic" by Kara Swisher in 2016: https://www.vox.com/2016/8/9/12415696/antonio-garcia-martine... . This wasn't a secret, which is why it was so easy for these Apple employees to assemble a lot of quotes at short notice.

It certainly wasn't a secret that he wrote the book! But "very misogynistic" is only one part of a long and not particularly hostile interview. If you stumbled upon this interview without the benefit of today's context, would you really be able to conclude the guy's permanently unemployable?

Two things come across in that interview alone.

He seems temperamentally totally unsuitable to being a manager at a mainstream tech company. Bluntly, he seems like an asshole. Possibly the kind of asshole certain people find funny. But an asshole. To that extent, I'm surprised he got an offer. Possibly he's very good at pretending not to be an asshole in job interviews.

Secondly, the quote from his book in that interview is exactly the kind of thing that, yes, makes you unhireable for management jobs at mainstream tech companies. Hiring people who not only believe that stuff but say it in public, on the record is an insanely big risk. The first female or non-white report who had a bad experience with him would find it extremely easy to sue Apple for discrimination or hostile work environment or whatever and they would win, and Exhibit A would be that quote.

That quote alone is such an obvious and insoluble problem that I can only assume Apple HR is trying right now to figure out why none of this was caught before the offer. He wouldn't have gotten to the onsite if someone had been paying attention.

He's not unemployable. He's not been cancelled. He's a fabulously wealthy public figure. He'll be fine. He'll probably write a book about this experience. And no one has to work for him. Everybody wins.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#100

Post by motohagiography »

HKH2 wrote: post #86
cudgy wrote: post #65

“At Apple, we have always strived to create an inclusive, welcoming workplace …” By excluding people that write passages in books outside of work that we don’t like.

You've forgotten the paradox of tolerance: you decide which tolerance is the right kind of tolerance, so you only tolerate the things you already agree with.

I'd suggest Popper's Paraphrase needs some deeper thought, as today it has been reduced to people trying to end arguments by yelling "KARL POPPER!" at people who step out of line.
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