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How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

theatlantic.com

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Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#91

Post by bourgwaletariat »

throwawayboise wrote: post #68
phone8675309 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I owned a company I would refuse to hire graduates from MIT, Harvard, and Stanford. It's much more likely that you were good at lying than at studying if you went there, and I don't have time to teach the basics.

I'll accept the premise that it's possible to fake your way into a school like that. I think it would be much harder to fake your way to a diploma though. Am I wrong?

Yes. You think Harvard is going to fail the son of a senator or legacy donor?

A lot of folks I went to college with did nothing but party, drink, hang out. Education didn't matter to them at all. They were going to get a job at their family's firm, company, etc anyway. Didn't matter what their grades were.

Professors know who they can't fail.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#92

Post by taotau »

Anatole_maarika wrote: post #4

Something that keeps me up at night is my fear that I only studied computer science and became a programmer because of economic and status reasons. I do feel incredibly lucky to have the job and freedom I do, but it drains me. And now I feel it's such a specialized education and I didn't explore enough to know anything else, and so I have no idea if I would have liked something completely different.

I've been a developer since the 90s and I still occasionally experience that dread.

But then I remember the reason I love this profession - it allows us to gain deep insights into other fields that we wouldnt normally come into contact with. To build abstract models of real world systems, you have to understand them and understanding is the best form of learning. We naturally become experts in many diverse fields simply by modelling them.

Recently I was made redundant from a long term job and was very hesitant about applying for the cool hip roles that I knew were around, instead I timidly replied to a few linkedin recruiter emails. I was promptly offered jobs working for one of the big banks, online ordering for one of the supermarket chains, and a local government role.

After due consideration, I turned them down and started applying to projects in areas where my skills are needed but I have something to learn as well. Im not interested in retail banking or building another checkout widget for a generic online shopper.

I know way more about the inner workings of anaesthesiology, police procedures, virology, locksmithing, fintech, electoral processes, hotel chains, cruise lines and many other fields that I would never have given two thoughts about.

Software is a craft, and to deliver your products you have to be invited into the customers private space. I find that fascinating and very fulfilling.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#93

Post by xvector »

rejectedandsad wrote: post #44
xvector wrote: post #8

> the schools that focus their training on the quest for competitive advantage betray every plausible ideal of academic excellence. The author does not seem to understand that these are not mutually exclusive. You can receive a fantastic, genuinely excellent education that is also a competitive advantage. Indeed, they go hand in hand - I’d argue it’s harder to give an excellent education that’s somehow not advantageo…

What about the rest of us? Should we just be just be shunted to the second, third, and fourth rungs of society because we didn’t have the right extracurriculars or only got a 1450 instead of a 1550? 99% of Americans have never attended and likely could not gain admittance to the top 20 schools, to paraphrase William Jennings Bryan the rest of us should not be crucified on a cross of Ivy.

You are not being “crucified” in any sense of the word. I guarantee you that there are still incredible opportunities available for second, third, etc place.

The current system encourages high levels of academic performance, which is precisely what our species needs to advance. There must be some sort of incentive.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#94

Post by gryn »

ggm wrote: post #78
HenryKissinger wrote: post #14

In some countries, like France and the United kingdom, the educational pyramid is even more skewed. In the United kingdom, graduates of Oxford University and Cambridge University are in a class of their own. Oxbridge alumni are overrepresented in politics, business, and the media. In France, the same phenomenon is at work with the École Polytechnique, the Écoles Normales Supérieures, and a few others. This creates sh…

I am not an Oxbridge or ENS graduate but I felt compelled to point out both had a competitive entry exam. I am unsure Oxbridge still does. The ecole normale system presupposes a national baccalaureate with ranking. The French took this seriously for decades. It was wafer thin egalitarianism because poor smart kids had a path in. I have little doubt nepotism also plays its part, but the fundamental underpinning is ran…

for ENS and polytechnique, I remember reading that a very large number of the accepted candidates for such schools came from a handful of rich kids high schools and can be traced back to a handful of rich kids Kindergartens. (I can't find the article)

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#95

Post by WalterBright »

> The turn away from the humanities is a sign of competitive schooling’s most far-reaching effect: It perverts our culture’s understanding of what education is, and makes us forget that schooling has value beyond status seeking.

This seems to be the crux of the article. If only people would study humanities instead of science & engineering. Science & engineering isn't a real education.

I disagree.

I derive great pleasure from the engineering & science education I received in college. I haven't the slightest interest in French Literature, etc., and don't feel at all deprived for not being educated in it.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#96

Post by usaar333 »

hardwaregeek wrote: post #45

As a current student, I see this first-hand. I go to a school that is moderately prestigious, but not well known for CS. Far too many of my classmates are obsessed with the same hamster wheel of optimizing grades, superficial extracurriculars and rec letter chasing. This isn't surprising; it's what got them into this school in the first place. Unfortunately for them it's also quite useless in tech. Some of them go as…

> People try to claim that it really doesn't matter where you go to college. That's not true.

There's probably edge cases, like for some startup founders or supreme court justices, but for the more "advantaged" than average children, it largely doesn't seem to matter in aggregate (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228303493_Estimatin...)

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#97

Post by jcranmer »

light_hue_1 wrote: post #81
HenryKissinger wrote: post #14

In some countries, like France and the United kingdom, the educational pyramid is even more skewed. In the United kingdom, graduates of Oxford University and Cambridge University are in a class of their own. Oxbridge alumni are overrepresented in politics, business, and the media. In France, the same phenomenon is at work with the École Polytechnique, the Écoles Normales Supérieures, and a few others. This creates sh…

> Donald Trump's election in 2016 has been dissected and explained hundred different ways. But it is undeniable that his victory (despite the fact that he lost the popular vote by approximately three million) is attributable in part to popular resentment against political and business elites It's very deniable. This simply cannot be the explanation. Trump is an elite. He inherited vast amounts of money and vastly und…

> The idea that this is a movement against elites when it is literally spearheaded by an elite is just absurd.

Yet if you cast your gaze upon history, you'll find that many social movements are indeed led against members of a political class by members of that very same political class. Many leaders of communist revolutions, for example, come from wealthy families and not the oppressed proletariat that they claim to represent.

Yes, Trump is an elite. However, he was still able to present himself as being against the elites, especially because he doesn't move in the same social circles as those elites.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#98

Post by WalterBright »

duxup wrote: post #89

I had some very smart and capable friends who exceled at school. I did not, I dropped out for a variety of reasons. But entering the workforce things changed. I thrived, I easily solved problems, and enjoyed what I thought of as "real work". Many of my friends did not. They seemed to thrive in the comfort of a syllabus, clear and defined paths to positive reinforcement, and status... but work isn't generally like tha…

> defined paths

Maybe they went to the wrong school?

I once did an analysis of the stress produced when the gear box ran full speed into the stops. My colleague looked it over, and asked "what book did you get these formulas from?" They weren't in the book, I derived them from principles. I.e. I wasn't trained to plug values into formulas, but how to get the formulas needed.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#99

Post by hnzix »

light_hue_1 wrote: post #81
HenryKissinger wrote: post #14

In some countries, like France and the United kingdom, the educational pyramid is even more skewed. In the United kingdom, graduates of Oxford University and Cambridge University are in a class of their own. Oxbridge alumni are overrepresented in politics, business, and the media. In France, the same phenomenon is at work with the École Polytechnique, the Écoles Normales Supérieures, and a few others. This creates sh…

> Donald Trump's election in 2016 has been dissected and explained hundred different ways. But it is undeniable that his victory (despite the fact that he lost the popular vote by approximately three million) is attributable in part to popular resentment against political and business elites It's very deniable. This simply cannot be the explanation. Trump is an elite. He inherited vast amounts of money and vastly und…

Trump is an elite but paints himself as an everyman here to "drain the swamp". Being elite and a populist are not mutually exclusive if you can fool the public.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#100

Post by WalterBright »

hardwaregeek wrote: post #90
WalterBright wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when really they didn't do much at all That's where the in-person interview comes in. It's a lot harder to fake one's way through that.

The in person interview has little to no bearing on your application. It can provide a minor positive boost but no negative value. Besides, the interviewers I had were all nice enough people but definitely possible to trick or BS.

Even if one asks probing questions about the project the candidate lied about doing?
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