What nobody says about startup moms • Hacker News Board

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#91

Post by mcguire » Mon, May 03, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

alex_young wrote: post #21

Here’s the thing - you shouldn’t have to choose between a career and having children. In the US we’ve created a set of incentives which work to put women at a disadvantage in the workplace if they become parents. Men, not so much, and largely because of this imbalance, even progressive couples fall into this paradigm. In the EU they mandate equal paid leave for both parents and require holding a job for them when the…

Two essentially unrelated comments about what you said:

In the US, the incentives which put women at a disadvantage in the workplace date from before there were many women in the workplace. Weirdly, we have doubled-down on them after women entered the workforce in large numbers, particularly in the tech industry. This probably means something.

Secondly, the site you link to says, "Both parents are entitled to at least 4 months leave each." Which is my issue with parental leave: I see it as a red herring. I mean, what happens in the other, roughly, 17 years and 8 months? (Yes, I know the EU is better in that regard, too, but focusing at all on parental leave rather than general work-life balance seems a little silly.)

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#92

Post by tremon » Mon, May 03, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

hvaoc wrote: post #54

One of the biggest issue with all this is "We lost the community in the pursuit of individuality". It takes a village to raise a child. I grew up in kind a commune. Most of the days kids would be on the streets playing, eat / sleep in their neighbours house. Moms were able to manage house as stay at home moms (hardest yet under-appreciated job) relatively better because of this community care provided for children. E…

Cities dwellers lose out on such things

Depends on the environment. I grew up in a city, but your first paragraph matches my childhood pretty well.

Our neighborhood was a cluster of short, twisty streets, with narrow roads and broad sidewalks. Our street had about 40 houses/apartments (mixed zone), and at least 10 of those had school-going children. In my street, I was one of the oldest so I mostly played with a few other kids from "'round the block", but I never needed to go beyond a 100meter-radius from my home.

Our moms took turns doing the school runs, supervising the little ones when they were outside, even cleaning or babysitting if needed. But right now, I don't see much of this happening where I live: a faceless street with a broad road and narrow sidewalk, more than 100 apartments but hardly anyone knows each other. Maybe it's just because I don't have children so I don't look for it, but I hardly ever see children playing outside on the streets here.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#93

Post by iso1210 » Mon, May 03, 2021, 7:16 PM UTC

bladegash wrote: post #24

loxs wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they are quite incompatible. Me and my wife have a 1y4m old and we mostly don't do anything else nowadays. Other than that we have (had?) a startup that is now mostly on hold, except for some hacking that we do now and then when one of our mothers is around. We are very lucky that we are mostly financially independent from before our son was born, otherwise I would have to go work in an office and it would be…

I really do not mean any offense by this - but how is a nearly one and a half year old requiring full-time attention from two people? I ask this as a single dad of two kids, one of them since they were < 1.

god knows how normal people cope!

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#94

Post by iso1210 » Mon, May 03, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #82

bladegash wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really do not mean any offense by this - but how is a nearly one and a half year old requiring full-time attention from two people? I ask this as a single dad of two kids, one of them since they were < 1.

"we mostly don't do anything else nowadays" != "requiring full time attention" I still have downtime after having a kid, but I'm much less motivated to spend it on a side project because I'm that much more exhausted.

OP seems to think that looking after a single child is more effort than available from two parents, one of whom has an office job

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#95

Post by lhorie » Mon, May 03, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

denimnerd42 wrote: post #60

I don't know if it's fair to classify this as just a mom problem. I'm having the same problems as a Dad.

Perhaps the issue is classifying it as a "problem" in the first place. As in, why is it considered problematic to want to spend more time w/ kids knowing it affects work-related opportunities? We generally accept that we can't master dozens of hobbies at once due to the inability to put the necessary time and effort into all of them, so why then is it considered a failure to pick one of the choices if the two conflicting activities are family time and main job?

I think the author comes to the right conclusion: they come to terms to the fact that spending time w/ kids is a good reward for them, for making the trade-off of not becoming a CEO.

I suppose one could argue that guilt for choosing kids over work is more of an issue for men because of societal expectations wrt income earning responsibilities. But then again, at the end of the day, regardless of whether you're a man or a woman, do you really want society to dictate what happiness/success should look like for you personally? If anything, someone who is in a position to be able to turn down a CEO position ought to be considered a highly successful individual by any societal standards

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#96

Post by whatshisface » Mon, May 03, 2021, 7:19 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #64

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It blew my mind when I heard someone say "kids are only toddlers for a couple of years" In your early 20s, a couple years of hard work sounds like an eternity. In your 30s and later, you realize a couple years is barely a blip on the radar. The infant/toddler phase is only a couple percent of your overall lifespan. Yes, it's work, but it's not subscribing to a lifetime of sacrifice and misery.

>In your early 20s, a couple years of hard work sounds like an eternity. >In your 30s and later, you realize a couple years is barely a blip on the radar. Another way to look at this is that when your youth is rapidly diminishing you really care about how you spend it but once that ship has sailed you rationalize whatever path you took.

Once it's spent, it doesn't really matter how, except insofar as it's left you with something afterwards. Three people standing side by side, one of them partied their whole twenties, the other focused on career, the last had kids. They're all thirty, so that's the same, but one of them clearly is worse off.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#97

Post by toomuchredbull » Mon, May 03, 2021, 7:19 PM UTC

It's also difficult for fathers. I don't know if I buy the "mom's do all the work" line anymore. When I take my kid to soccer practice it's all dads.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#98

Post by garmaine » Mon, May 03, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #76

garmaine wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this all the time and I really don't understand it. Like, if that's how you feel then why did you have kids? But if I ever say that to someone they'll take offense. I think they just want to vent. Which is why it doesn't make sense to me because I see complaining for the sake of complaining as a negative-utility activity.

> I see complaining for the sake of complaining as a negative-utility activity I'm not sure if any studies have been done but I'd be interested to know if that's true. My instinct is the opposite: a little bitch and moan can make you feel better about getting something off your chest, especially if the person you're talking to sympathises and can maybe even give you feedback. And let's be honest, this is nothing spec…

Asking for advice is not "complaining for the sake of complaining."

Regarding the activity, it may make you feel better but my question is: does it actually improve the situation? I assert that it does not. Obviously just making a complaint doesn't fix anything, but more importantly it focuses attention on negative aspects (which we presuppose can't be fixed by merely talking), which reinforces both your view of those negative things and strengthens the negative emotional reaction.

I learned this from one of my aunts who is the best parent I have ever seen: tireless, family-focused, and always positive. When I became a parent myself I asked her how she deals with all the stress and she told me it's as simple, and as hard as just focusing on the positives. When you feel frustrated about something you cannot change, then find the positive and focus on that.

It sounds dumb, but it works. It makes you happy, which makes for less shouting or stern parenting, which builds better relationships with your kids and spouse, which starts a positive feedback loop.

On the other hand I often see parents complaining about their kids every time they meet up with other parents, sometimes when the kids are within earshot too, which just makes them focus on and respond more quickly with negative emotions to those same issues. This starts a negative feedback loop which starts them down into the "ugh, everyday is a chore" lows.

Our brains are reinforcement machines, so just complaining by itself does make the situation worse, when there is no expectations of the complaint causing the situation to be resolved. That's what I mean by inherent negative-utility.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#99

Post by username90 » Mon, May 03, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

garmaine wrote: post #74

djoldman wrote: post #39

Kids' effect on work life is an important topic. I think it's possible that male, man, men can be substituted for female, woman, women in this article and have it be just as true except for this: > But what people without kids may not realize is the extent to which people with kids want their time to be consumed by them. And, on the whole, I’d guess women more so than men. I have no data on that.

Well, I have anicdata: every working parent I have ever known wants to spend more time with their kids. All the stay-at-home moms I know (except one) complain about their kids, their repetitive daily routine, and wish they had a job or career. The stay-at-home dads I know love it, but this can probably be explained as self-selection: it's because they're so family focused that they flipped society's expectations and…

Or its just politics, few people admit they are happy with anything since it gives them less leverage in negotiations.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#100

Post by bena » Mon, May 03, 2021, 7:22 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #64

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It blew my mind when I heard someone say "kids are only toddlers for a couple of years" In your early 20s, a couple years of hard work sounds like an eternity. In your 30s and later, you realize a couple years is barely a blip on the radar. The infant/toddler phase is only a couple percent of your overall lifespan. Yes, it's work, but it's not subscribing to a lifetime of sacrifice and misery.

>In your early 20s, a couple years of hard work sounds like an eternity. >In your 30s and later, you realize a couple years is barely a blip on the radar. Another way to look at this is that when your youth is rapidly diminishing you really care about how you spend it but once that ship has sailed you rationalize whatever path you took.

Yet a third way is that the younger you are, the greater the percentage of your lived life is represented by a year.

When you are 5, a year represents a full 20% of your life. (And even more of the amount of life you are capable of fully aware of).

When you are 20, a year is 5% of your life.

When you are 50, it's 2%.

Imagine asking someone to commit to what is effectively seen as 25% of their life to a project. But that's what we do when we tell teenagers to start thinking about college.