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The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

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Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#91
All this code signing stuff is an admission of defeat. "Our OSes are insecure and we can't secure them, so fuck it."

Unix and VMS/NT, the two most popular kernel lineages, were both designed when computers were either isolated or connected to an Internet that was effectively an academic/government walled garden. They absolutely were not designed to deal with the present information war zone where everything is trying to spy/hack/ransomware you and every piece of code is guilty until proven innocent.

Since the Internet went mainstream we've been constantly stuffing wads of chewing gum into their many cracks, adding hack after hack to try to secure that which is not secure. Address layout randomization, pointer authentication hacks, stack canaries, clunky system call whitelisting solutions, trying to shoehorn BPF into a system call filtering role, leaky containers and sandboxes, and so on.

Code signing is an admission that none of those measures have worked.

A secure OS would be built from the ground up with security as a primary concern. It would be written in a safe language like Rust or perhaps even in a system that permits strong proofs of correctness. Every process would run with minimal required permissions. Everything everywhere would be authenticated. The user would have visibility into all this and would be able (if they desired) to control it, or they could rely on sets of sane defaults.

There'd be no need for code signing on such an OS. You could safely run anything and know it would not be able to access things you didn't grant it permission to access. The web JavaScript sandbox is the closest thing we have to that but it's extremely limited. By providing a Turing-complete sandbox that can be generally trusted to run code from anywhere, it does show that such a thing is possible.

(Mobile OSes look like they've kind of done this, but they haven't. They've just stuffed more chewing gum into the cracks in Unix and put a UI on top that hides it. They also "solve" the problem by nerfing everything.)

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#92
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't prevent it from becoming so mainstream at work that even one salesman(!) at work used it. Yes you have to jump through hoops and not everyone in IT is extremely happy always but even some of them prefer it. To me it feels kind of like when Mac broke through in developer circles. First it was weird and IT department laughed. Then more and more people including bosses demanded it and here we are: if a job…

> That doesn't prevent it from becoming so mainstream at work I would say that it does. If your boss is not aware of this system, they will not allow to use it or consider secure. At work, I am typically not allowed to freely choose my OS.

You misunderstood me. The point is it is already happening:

Linux is already so mainstream at work that I've seen a sales guy(!) using Ubuntu.

And I see people sharing screen on Teams and it is Linux!

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cheap considering what? Considering the 30% margins they take on any further sale? Considering the 25$ one-time fee the Play Store takes?

For macOS (which is what we're talking about in a topic about notarization), you can sell your software any way you want outside of the App Store, without the 30% cut. There's still a $100/year developer account fee to be able to notarize new builds of your app. This is not iOS where the App Store is the only way to install an app. This comment is not an endorsement of any aspect of Apple's business model, I'm just c…

Just FWIW it's a 15% cut nowadays. (Unless you are doing >$1million a year of sales, which anyone quibbling over a $100 annual fee isn't.)

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#94
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment could have been written a decade ago and it was as laughable back then as it is today. Developers do not dictate the success of a platform. Users do. And they don’t want Linux on the desktop.

Why do users choose a platform? Apps. Who makes the apps? Developers embraced Windows over Mac, users followed. (Until iOS development made Mac's the default dev machine.) Developers embraced iOS and Android over Symbian and webOS. Windows and Mac were great development platforms ten years ago, and iOS and Android were way better than the now-dead competition.

> Until iOS development made Mac's the default dev machine.

Bash, and a lack of a good command line story on Windows, made the Mac the "default dev machine" for certain cultures/industries.

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#96
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$100/yr is fairly cheap all things considered, and it takes thirty minutes Max to set up a bash script to handle it. And that’s just non-Xcode. If you use Xcode it’s often automatic.

Cheap considering what? Considering the 30% margins they take on any further sale? Considering the 25$ one-time fee the Play Store takes?

They do not take 30% of OS X sales. OS X software can be sold through any channel.

They also don’t take 30% of iOS sales, but that’s an unrelated factual error.

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#97
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That doesn't prevent it from becoming so mainstream at work I would say that it does. If your boss is not aware of this system, they will not allow to use it or consider secure. At work, I am typically not allowed to freely choose my OS.

You misunderstood me. The point is it is already happening: Linux is already so mainstream at work that I've seen a sales guy(!) using Ubuntu. And I see people sharing screen on Teams and it is Linux!

[deleted]

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#98
post #38

And, not mentioned in the article... you have to have an Apple Developer ID which costs £79/year ($99). Presumably if your subscription lapses any previously released software will stop working? That is the part I find most offensive, if it was just difficult and buggy I would suck it up and work around it. But having to pay for the privilege is too painful, particularly if you're offering free software. For my case…

No, if your subscription lapses previously released software won't stop working. If you are offering free software you can sign with an ad-hoc certificate, and instruct the user on how to bypass gatekeeper, which isn't great at all but it doesn't cost any $$.

Looks like this explains how: https://www.digicert.com/kb/code-signing/mac-os-codesign-too... but... "only Apple Developer code signing certificates are compatible with GateKeeper"

Does code-signing with an ad hoc certificate and no notarization provide any better experience than just unsigned code?

Do you get a friendlier message (c/f "malicious software: Move to Trash") when Gatekeeper blocks it?

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#99
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so sure. It's a chicken egg problem: if developers get so frustrated that they suddenly start building great experiences on Linux, the users will flock there. It won't be a fast exodus, and it won't be clear cut, but it will set in motion a transition. Developers follow demand, but users follow supply. If enough developers create supply elsewhere, and that supply gets interesting, users will come.

Many OEMs including large ones like Dell have built Linux desktops and laptops over the years. No one buys them. It’s not because of the lack of apps but because the basics are so poor e.g. broken sleep mode, driver instability, poor battery life, changing UI etc

> No one buys them.

Pfffft. OK! Clearly this is incorrect... We have whole companies like System 76 built around selling Linux desktop systems. We have whole divisions of PC manufacturers for selling Linux desktop systems. If nobody was buying them, they'd cease to exist.

Non-developers largely don't buy them, that's all.

Also, many developers are aware that Linux runs on anything, so a large portion of Linux users just install it on whatever hardware they already have. The rest buy systems from Dell, System 76, etc. or build their own.

> because the basics are so poor e.g. broken sleep mode, driver instability, poor battery life, changing UI etc.

Developers obviously buy pre-built Linux laptops that have none of these sleep/driver/battery problems. I work with some of them. If one makes a sensible choice and uses a desktop environment like XFCE, they would notice that there's much, much, much less instability in the UI when compared to Windows, macOS, Gnome or KDE.

Personally, I prefer desktop systems and I have never had to spend more than 40 minutes getting Linux running on any desktop PC that I've tried it on outside of my Mac Pro from 2012, which was only problematic because it's not a real PC with a normal BIOS or boot procedure it's a locked down Apple terminal.

I've seen way, way, way more problems with macOS and Windows than I have with people running Linux in our office. Certain mice and keyboards won't even work on a Mac!

Re: The Gates to Hell: Apple’s Notarizing

#100
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say "most", and even the framing I used of "default machine" came from the comment I was responding to: > Until iOS development made Mac's the default dev machine. I was just pointing out that based on my personal experience, it started earlier than that. I don't know what to say about the elitist comment. I'm only pointing out my anecdotal experience. I'm well aware of Stackoverflow's developer statistics,…

It depends on what you work on. Of course if you work with iOS development your surroundings will be mostly macOS machines since it's a hard requirement, no surprises here hence my comment about bubbles. Otherwise statistically speaking, macs are not the default developer machine as per surveys. It also depends on who you admire. For example Linus, someone I admire, uses a AMD Threadripper 3970x. And the best enginee…

> It depends on what you work on. Of course if you work with iOS development your surroundings will be mostly macOS machines since it's a hard requirement, no surprises here hence my comment about bubbles. Otherwise statistically speaking, macs are not the default developer machine as per surveys.

Again, I didn't framed it as default machine, that comes from the comment I was responding to. Personally, I probably would have said something like "default machine for developers working on products that target non-developers" (I'd have to think really carefully about how I'd word this actually, because I'm well-aware of the statistics).

Actually, I'd love to hear your framing of this. E.g., major tech companies usually default to a MacBook for developers. They're usually the most common machine at tech conferences. Unfortunately both based on anecdotal experience again, maybe you disagree with those too? But if you agree, how would you describe that if not the default machine for developers then? Not being rhetorical, I honestly struggle figure out the best way to describe it.

(Also regarding this "Of course if you work with iOS development your surroundings will be mostly macOS machines since it's a hard requirement, no surprises here hence my comment about bubbles." I was specifically drawing on my experience before iOS development existed, when I worked in web development.)

> It also depends on who you admire. For example Linus, someone I admire, uses a AMD Threadripper 3970x. And the best engineer I personally know, uses a Thinkpad with Debian.

Clearly, but why is my following the work of people who I admire (mainly product-centric apps and website) elitist, but your following Linus, etc... not elitist? That was my question here.

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